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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:17 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Running one in camp and running them during the season are two different things. But I know you know that.


But what's funny is I think one of Ben's excuses was having to practice it in order to run it. So the fact that they practiced it - and made sure everyone knew they practiced it - means now they can actually run it!!! :lol:

Either that, or they decided everyone now knows they won't run the sneak and so they practiced one to make everyone start thinking they could/might actually run one.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:21 pm 
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955876 wrote:
We should have several simple pitch & catch plays to open receivers off play action weekly.


Early in his career, Ben was just about the GOAT at running play action. I think only Peyton Manning ran it more, and Ben was off the charts with like a 125+ QBR.

Then we ended-up with an OL that couldn't pass protect nearly long enough for the play. Even last year with generally very good pass pro, they still seem to breakdown on play action. It's like the entire offense has become allergic to that play.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
955876 wrote:
Running one in camp and running them during the season are two different things. But I know you know that.


But what's funny is I think one of Ben's excuses was having to practice it in order to run it. So the fact that they practiced it - and made sure everyone knew they practiced it - means now they can actually run it!!! :lol:

Either that, or they decided everyone now knows they won't run the sneak and so they practiced one to make everyone start thinking they could/might actually run one.


Nothing surprises me anymore these days when it comes to this team and some of the decisions made.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:57 pm 
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PA is one of the reasons I'm happy Ben has FINALLY taken diet and exercise more seriously this year. I think he knows being lighter and more nimble will make PA much easier for him to pull off. I also think that's why he hasn't liked doing it over the past 4-6 years. He has greatly reduced to amount of inflammation in his body just by cutting out all processed sugars; something that's bound to make him feel better and recover faster.

I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:16 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


I don't remember the exact numbers, but young Ben was @ like 24% PA, and in recent years it's been 10% or less. Some of that may also be explained by Ben's preference for shotgun/pistol.

Other teams get at least a handful of easy TD's, if not more, from good PA inside the 5.

And can you imagine Ben's deep ball numbers if you add in a bunch of easy tosses from fooling the defense on PA?

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:29 pm 
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At least Bell is there whether he likes it or not for another season under the FT. But really pay the man or trade him.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:04 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
DP39 wrote:
I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


I don't remember the exact numbers, but young Ben was @ like 24% PA, and in recent years it's been 10% or less. Some of that may also be explained by Ben's preference for shotgun/pistol.

Other teams get at least a handful of easy TD's, if not more, from good PA inside the 5.

And can you imagine Ben's deep ball numbers if you add in a bunch of easy tosses from fooling the defense on PA?

We ran a ton of PA from shotgun, once upon a time. As recently as 2014, IIRC.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:52 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
PA is one of the reasons I'm happy Ben has FINALLY taken diet and exercise more seriously this year. I think he knows being lighter and more nimble will make PA much easier for him to pull off. I also think that's why he hasn't liked doing it over the past 4-6 years. He has greatly reduced to amount of inflammation in his body just by cutting out all processed sugars; something that's bound to make him feel better and recover faster.

I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


You could teach any of the linemen to do play action. You must have the OC support it, the QB coach to choreograph it, and the QB to practice and execute it. It is a tool that will actually help avoid concussions and sacks if used properly. And I hope to god there is a reduction of empty backfield sets. Why you would want to go to a gun fight with only 5 bullets when you have a 6 shooter is beyond me.

Haley did get the sacks down and kept Ben upright. But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:58 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Some competent OL and Mike Munchak did get the sacks down and kept Ben upright. But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:22 am 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
It will be interesting to see what an offensive coordinator who embraces play action can do. Hard to believe the lack of play action under Haley when you have HOF QB and an on track to be HOF RB.

Split seconds separate the cream of the crop, how you don’t give your team a chance to get a split second on every play boggles the mind.

Agree. Some of the stubborn tendencies that frustrate me as a fan of this team.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:02 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Some competent OL and Mike Munchak did get the sacks down and kept Ben upright. But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

...and a lot of bubble screens...

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:21 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

Also, running empty *should* help an OL and *should* help a QB get matchups in space to exploit. Early in Ben's career, he had issues taking the checkdown and then his OL developed into incompetent goo. However, once they bolstered the OL talent, the numbers are pretty good. A few of the 3rd/4th and short pass plays were not empty but overall in 2017 3rd/4th & 1-2 yds:

2017 3rd or 4th and 1-2 yards 18/24 133 75% 5 TD/ 0 INT 127.3 rating

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:03 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

Also, running empty *should* help an OL and *should* help a QB get matchups in space to exploit. Early in Ben's career, he had issues taking the checkdown and then his OL developed into incompetent goo. However, once they bolstered the OL talent, the numbers are pretty good. A few of the 3rd/4th and short pass plays were not empty but overall in 2017 3rd/4th & 1-2 yds:

2017 3rd or 4th and 1-2 yards 18/24 133 75% 5 TD/ 0 INT 127.3 rating


Not sure I understand B2B. Are you saying spreading the RB out or going with extra receiver makes it easier to get 1-1 matchups? Or that it makes it easier to get them isolated through the wash?

Not sure if you are arguing one way or the other, but I would think achieving what you describe and an empty backfield should not be mutually exclusive.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 am 
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The thing most people miss about empty on short yardage is that the RB is in the game, meaning the defense has to put heavier personnel in the game... they can't be sure you're not going to run it. So, in effect, it's similar to the benefit of PA pass but adds the element of making the presnap read much easier for the QB. It usually ends up being an easier throw and it's less time with the ball in the QB's hands.

Steelers had trouble with when they first started using it because:

A. the QB was still learning how to read the D and get rid of the football
B. the OL was so bad, they couldn't hold off the pass rush blocking 1 v 1

With empty, you get the 5 eligibles all 1-3 yards from getting the 1st down, the defense is forced to 'declare' who's covering (even if it's not pure man coverage, someone has to dissuade/cover an immediate throw). AND, if you have a really great pass-blocking OL, you might be able to get the ball beyond the LOS coverage and get a dude in space for a big gain.

I SO prefer empty set on short yardage vs heavy set run formation, whether the play call is run or PA. And that's even taking into account that Lev Bell was #1 in the NFL in at least 2016 and I think 2015 in short-yardage conversions.

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