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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:46 am 
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Let him walk.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:20 am 
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JackSplat58 wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMAZaqyEwhA&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]


Someone always says what the secret to the YouTube video posting is, but I can never remember. I grab the link created for twitter.


Isn't it in FC's signature?



Yup.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:46 am 
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FC’s signature needs some updating! I have taken the liberty to update your signature line, please feel free to update at your earliest convenience FC”


“Remove the S from the https when you "paste" the link in for a youtube video. Also remember to check the link for shortening so as to avoid links such as https://youtu.be/2bnxUq3C2 and don’t use the mobile version such as https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2bnxUq3C2 ... e=youtu.be and once the link looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bnxUq3C27 you can then remove the s from https”


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:46 am 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
This guy’s video analysis and breakdown of the blocking schemes is almost the counter to the video above...when you look at what he does on the field he is essentially doing a run option on the linebackers and then picking his hole. I love this video and it makes me want to Tag Bell again in 2019 assuming he has a banner year again.



Boxing is an individual sport and Ali was a champion. Bell is a RB in a league where running is inferior to passing. Bell is champion of nothing...

Not only that, the offense has never been among the very best in the league with Bell at the center and this with a good OL, a HOF QB and HOF WR to loosen the defense for the Mike Tomlin/Todd Haley running back fanboy inferior Bell centered offense. Yeah, I think our former wr HC is a rb fanboy (like Cowher before the light bulb came on). Think he would break out in a cold sweat if he had to choose between Ben and Bell to start a team. In the end he might choose Ben but he'd loose sleep over it, IMO.

Maybe the best stretch of offense we ever had with Haley at the OC helm came without Leveon Bell on the field.

2015 during the stretch of games DWill started and finished Oak thru Balt...

We averaged 30+ ppg during that stretch.

Dwill 170 yds rushing vs Raiders... only 41 came in the first half when we rang up the scoreboard with 21 points in that first half.

Dwill 134 yds rushing vs Colts... only 29 yds came in the first half when we rang up the scoreboard in that first half with 21 points.

The only other game DWill had 100 yds rushing was the loss vs Ravens when we reverted to attrition football. We ran the football 14 times in the first half, passed 13 times... but the last 6 plays of the half we threw the football so we really came out running the football most of the half... and we scored 3 points that first half.

Leveon Bell will be more like a role player (an important role), not the centerpiece on an offense that is the best in the league, on an offense that averages 30+ ppg in the post season that leads the team to a Lombardi.

I'm guessing it's all going to change this year and we might see the best offense we have ever had during the Ben era. Lets hope so, because it's the only shot we have at the Lombardi this season.


Last edited by Havoc on Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:37 am 
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The counter is that Bell does all things well including pass protection. How often do you see Bell helping chip on a edge rusher to help Villi out? If you say none you are either lying or are totally unobservant. Pass protection is one of the make or break things for RBs. Sure a rookie can run as well but can they see the real blitizer and pick them up? Not a lot of 3 down backs in the NFL.

That said, I would not pay Bell as much as he wants because of age and 2 knee injuries. i do not begrudge him asking for all he can get.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:49 am 
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jebrick wrote:
The counter is that Bell does all things well including pass protection.


That's why I said it's an important role. Pass protection might be the most important thing Bell will do for this offense, if it averages 30+ for the ps and leads us to a Lombardi.

Mewelde Moore says hi.

If a team is dumb enough to give Bell the $$$ he wants... they aren't getting a ring.

I don't give a rats ass what Bell wants if it does not help the Steelers. I'm a Steelers fan.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:59 pm 
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It will be interesting to see what an offensive coordinator who embraces play action can do. Hard to believe the lack of play action under Haley when you have HOF QB and an on track to be HOF RB.

Split seconds separate the cream of the crop, how you don’t give your team a chance to get a split second on every play boggles the mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:45 pm 
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But but but Ben can’t turn his back to the D in order to pull off play-action.

Or execute a QB sneak.

We will see soon enough if the above was a result of Haley or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:43 pm 
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955876 wrote:
But but but Ben can’t turn his back to the D in order to pull off play-action.

Or execute a QB sneak.

We will see soon enough if the above was a result of Haley or not.


It's inconceivable to me that an OC would give up on those two plays. But Ben has had enough concussions, and talked about concussions enough, for that to be the underlying reason of it all. Ben, Tomlin and Haley were all arrogant enough to think they could win without those plays.

I think Ben heard the criticism after last year and didn't like it. Notice they already practiced the sneak....and had it reported. Got that out of the way pronto and put the "qb sneak?" questions to rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Running one in camp and running them during the season are two different things. But I know you know that.

So we’ll see if the camp sneaks are window dressing or if they are serious.

I agree it’s mind numbingly stupid & arrogant to leave those plays out of the book.

We should have several simple pitch & catch plays to open receivers off play action weekly.

But then, we do what we do.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:17 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Running one in camp and running them during the season are two different things. But I know you know that.


But what's funny is I think one of Ben's excuses was having to practice it in order to run it. So the fact that they practiced it - and made sure everyone knew they practiced it - means now they can actually run it!!! :lol:

Either that, or they decided everyone now knows they won't run the sneak and so they practiced one to make everyone start thinking they could/might actually run one.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:21 pm 
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955876 wrote:
We should have several simple pitch & catch plays to open receivers off play action weekly.


Early in his career, Ben was just about the GOAT at running play action. I think only Peyton Manning ran it more, and Ben was off the charts with like a 125+ QBR.

Then we ended-up with an OL that couldn't pass protect nearly long enough for the play. Even last year with generally very good pass pro, they still seem to breakdown on play action. It's like the entire offense has become allergic to that play.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
955876 wrote:
Running one in camp and running them during the season are two different things. But I know you know that.


But what's funny is I think one of Ben's excuses was having to practice it in order to run it. So the fact that they practiced it - and made sure everyone knew they practiced it - means now they can actually run it!!! :lol:

Either that, or they decided everyone now knows they won't run the sneak and so they practiced one to make everyone start thinking they could/might actually run one.


Nothing surprises me anymore these days when it comes to this team and some of the decisions made.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:57 pm 
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PA is one of the reasons I'm happy Ben has FINALLY taken diet and exercise more seriously this year. I think he knows being lighter and more nimble will make PA much easier for him to pull off. I also think that's why he hasn't liked doing it over the past 4-6 years. He has greatly reduced to amount of inflammation in his body just by cutting out all processed sugars; something that's bound to make him feel better and recover faster.

I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:16 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


I don't remember the exact numbers, but young Ben was @ like 24% PA, and in recent years it's been 10% or less. Some of that may also be explained by Ben's preference for shotgun/pistol.

Other teams get at least a handful of easy TD's, if not more, from good PA inside the 5.

And can you imagine Ben's deep ball numbers if you add in a bunch of easy tosses from fooling the defense on PA?

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:29 pm 
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At least Bell is there whether he likes it or not for another season under the FT. But really pay the man or trade him.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:04 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
DP39 wrote:
I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


I don't remember the exact numbers, but young Ben was @ like 24% PA, and in recent years it's been 10% or less. Some of that may also be explained by Ben's preference for shotgun/pistol.

Other teams get at least a handful of easy TD's, if not more, from good PA inside the 5.

And can you imagine Ben's deep ball numbers if you add in a bunch of easy tosses from fooling the defense on PA?

We ran a ton of PA from shotgun, once upon a time. As recently as 2014, IIRC.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:52 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
PA is one of the reasons I'm happy Ben has FINALLY taken diet and exercise more seriously this year. I think he knows being lighter and more nimble will make PA much easier for him to pull off. I also think that's why he hasn't liked doing it over the past 4-6 years. He has greatly reduced to amount of inflammation in his body just by cutting out all processed sugars; something that's bound to make him feel better and recover faster.

I guess we'll see if Ben does PA here and how much Haley calls it in Cleveland this year.


You could teach any of the linemen to do play action. You must have the OC support it, the QB coach to choreograph it, and the QB to practice and execute it. It is a tool that will actually help avoid concussions and sacks if used properly. And I hope to god there is a reduction of empty backfield sets. Why you would want to go to a gun fight with only 5 bullets when you have a 6 shooter is beyond me.

Haley did get the sacks down and kept Ben upright. But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:58 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Some competent OL and Mike Munchak did get the sacks down and kept Ben upright. But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:22 am 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
It will be interesting to see what an offensive coordinator who embraces play action can do. Hard to believe the lack of play action under Haley when you have HOF QB and an on track to be HOF RB.

Split seconds separate the cream of the crop, how you don’t give your team a chance to get a split second on every play boggles the mind.

Agree. Some of the stubborn tendencies that frustrate me as a fan of this team.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:02 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Some competent OL and Mike Munchak did get the sacks down and kept Ben upright. But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

...and a lot of bubble screens...

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:21 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

Also, running empty *should* help an OL and *should* help a QB get matchups in space to exploit. Early in Ben's career, he had issues taking the checkdown and then his OL developed into incompetent goo. However, once they bolstered the OL talent, the numbers are pretty good. A few of the 3rd/4th and short pass plays were not empty but overall in 2017 3rd/4th & 1-2 yds:

2017 3rd or 4th and 1-2 yards 18/24 133 75% 5 TD/ 0 INT 127.3 rating

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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:03 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
But empty backfield sets is a simple probability and math problem that just helps the opposing DC.

Also, running empty *should* help an OL and *should* help a QB get matchups in space to exploit. Early in Ben's career, he had issues taking the checkdown and then his OL developed into incompetent goo. However, once they bolstered the OL talent, the numbers are pretty good. A few of the 3rd/4th and short pass plays were not empty but overall in 2017 3rd/4th & 1-2 yds:

2017 3rd or 4th and 1-2 yards 18/24 133 75% 5 TD/ 0 INT 127.3 rating


Not sure I understand B2B. Are you saying spreading the RB out or going with extra receiver makes it easier to get 1-1 matchups? Or that it makes it easier to get them isolated through the wash?

Not sure if you are arguing one way or the other, but I would think achieving what you describe and an empty backfield should not be mutually exclusive.


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 Post subject: Re: Don’t Pay Bell Argument
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:46 am 
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The thing most people miss about empty on short yardage is that the RB is in the game, meaning the defense has to put heavier personnel in the game... they can't be sure you're not going to run it. So, in effect, it's similar to the benefit of PA pass but adds the element of making the presnap read much easier for the QB. It usually ends up being an easier throw and it's less time with the ball in the QB's hands.

Steelers had trouble with when they first started using it because:

A. the QB was still learning how to read the D and get rid of the football
B. the OL was so bad, they couldn't hold off the pass rush blocking 1 v 1

With empty, you get the 5 eligibles all 1-3 yards from getting the 1st down, the defense is forced to 'declare' who's covering (even if it's not pure man coverage, someone has to dissuade/cover an immediate throw). AND, if you have a really great pass-blocking OL, you might be able to get the ball beyond the LOS coverage and get a dude in space for a big gain.

I SO prefer empty set on short yardage vs heavy set run formation, whether the play call is run or PA. And that's even taking into account that Lev Bell was #1 in the NFL in at least 2016 and I think 2015 in short-yardage conversions.

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