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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Bell should cost less. They're really going to have to consider a serious raise in cap sometime soon.

I think there is going to be an interruption in play once this CBA is up. These guys asks will be unbelievable- guaranteed contracts like baseball will be on the table.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:39 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Curious if the opinions On this esteemed board will change with a Super Bowl victory and him having a very stellar season.
I hope Samuels and Conner get half of Bell's snaps this season, and the win the SB with someone other than bell getting the mvp. Like BR. That'd be acceptable. Then bye bye bell. Look for replacement(s).

LakecrestSteeler wrote:
I think they need Bell as a hedge against the time period to transition Ben, assuming he is not on the Brady career track and more on the Elway track...they wear the same number you know.
Wha? I don't understand. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:06 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Curious if the opinions On this esteemed board will change with a Super Bowl victory and him having a very stellar season.
I hope Samuels and Conner get half of Bell's snaps this season, and the win the SB with someone other than bell getting the mvp. Like BR. That'd be acceptable. Then bye bye bell. Look for replacement(s).

LakecrestSteeler wrote:
I think they need Bell as a hedge against the time period to transition Ben, assuming he is not on the Brady career track and more on the Elway track...they wear the same number you know.
Wha? I don't understand. . .


Odds are you will not get another franchise QB after Ben retires around 38. We most likely will have to try a few QBs before we hopefully get the next franchise QB. Having Bell around can make those years a little more tolerable and successful and make Bubby Brister feel like he doesn’t have to put the whole team on his shoulders. This is a moot point if 7 hangs on until 40.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Hinestuff wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens when the Rams need to pay their QB...

I predict Goff will either not get C$2 from the Rams OR will get the big $$$ and be a disaster for them.


Why did they do this without paying Goff first?

Maybe because agoff had one terrible season and one decent one, albeit with a huge running game and an OC who almost literally held his hand all through the season. Big year for Goff to prove he isn’t the weakest link (he is).

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:03 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Hinestuff wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
I predict Goff will either not get C$2 from the Rams OR will get the big $$$ and be a disaster for them.


Why did they do this without paying Goff first?

Maybe because agoff had one terrible season and one decent one, albeit with a huge running game and an OC who almost literally held his hand all through the season. Big year for Goff to prove he isn’t the weakest link (he is).

Tom Brady has become a sure fire HoFer and arguably the GOAT by having his hand hold throughout his entire career...

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens when the Rams need to pay their QB...


We paid AB big money while we'd been paying Ben all those years....who else do they have to pay? When you pay a franchise QB, you can still pay 8-9 guys big money. Without a franchise QB it becomes more like 10-11. A franchise QB is basically just a "double" contract and really doesn't cripple a team, not with the way the cap has been going up (you just have to draft well - not much help available in free agency, really)

To be honest, I have no idea what their current cap situation is. But it sure seems like they’ve been throwing around money like Pacman at a strip club lately. Aaron Donald excepted.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:21 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Scunge wrote:
This is great for Gurley but the RB that really is going to cash in and totally set the high watermark is David Johnson with Arizona.

My argument all along for NOT paying Bell is that he is not as good/great as he thinks he is, that he is slowing down and that the explosive plays and touchdown production simply is not there for somebody who wants so many touches.

Gurley had 19 TDs last season, David Johnson had 20 TDs in 2016. These two young RBs are just getting started and I can see them joining the likes of a Priest Holmes, a Marshall Faulk, a Ladanian Tomlinson where scoring 20, 24, 31 touchdowns is possible. Bell? No, he is just not in that elite category, lucky to barely go over 10 TDs even with all of those touches.

Some other comparisons between Gurley and Bell:

Explosive plays rushing:

Gurley 8 runs over 20+ yards, 1 run over 40+ yards (57 yard touchdown)

Bell 3 runs over 20+ yards (27 yard run the longest)

Explosive plays receiving:

Gurley 12 catches over 20+ yards, 4 catches over 40+ yards (80 yard touchdown the longest), 12.3 yard per catch

Bell, 5 catches over 20+ yards, 1 catch over 40+ yards (42 yards the longest), 7.7 yards per catch, nearly 5 yards less per catch.

Funny, how Bell and his supporters all talk about how great he is as a WR, how he deserves to be paid because he is just like a WR? Bullshit!! Todd Gurley, and David Johnson, they run deeper routes, they are more dangerous, more explosive, they truly are like WRs out there, Bell and his receiving prowess are more like a slow, plodding TE.

Lets face it, Bell and the receptions that he gets are basically what Heath Miller used to provide back in the day. There is nothing special about it.

Oh, the irony, Bell turned down two offers by the Steelers in back to back years and now he may very well find that both Gurley and Johnson and who knows what other RBs (Elliot) may all get new contracts before he finally gets paid. And he may not get paid anywhere close to what these other players are getting because they are younger, more explosive, have less baggage, etc. He had his moment, but he let it slip away.


All the talk of Bell being the next Marshall Faulk seems like a long time ago. And he was, for a short period of time post rookie fatboy and pre knee injuries. It did not last long though. I loved watching Leveon Bell play football in 2014. I distinctly remember the moment I was saddened when I realized I would never see it again because he could no longer move like that in space.

In today's game, the slow plodding Bell picking his way for a 4 yd gain is getting old. It's inferior to quicker faster guys. David Johnson is at another level.

The fear has been removed over the middle of the field. We need to take advantage of it with quickness/speed in space. Belichick and Brady have been making a living on it for years (along with TE's down the seams).



agree with both u guys 100%. bell outruns no-one except a delineman . sure he can get some yards and make some big runs but he's hardly a threat to break a long run. seems his hesitating style is not fooling anyone anymore. nice target catching ball but hardly spectacular . noway he's worth the franchise tag with his distracting ways. ill be glad when his drama show moves to another team. we've seen bells peak and and enjoyed, down hill from here.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Great point about teams adjusting to his 'patient' running style Bam. I agree with this too and people disagree and argue with me all the time and ask where is my proof? Well, I point to the fact that in the last two seasons, the last 24 games that he played during the regular season, that he has now become a fumbler.

In 2016 he fumbled 4 times, 3 times rushing, 1 time as a receiver.
In 2017 he fumbled 3 times, 2 times rushing, 1 time as a receiver.

So, in his last 24 games he fumbled 7 times, 3 of those fumbles were recovered by the defense, two of those fumbles thankfully went out of bounds before they could be recovered.

In those 24 games he had 674 touches and he fumbled 7 times, averaging 1 fumble for every 96 touches.

Contrast that to the the first 38 games that he played where he had 867 touches and fumbled just... once. 1 fumble out of 867 touches.

Bell wants his touches but his yards per carry is declining.
Bell wants his touches but his yards per catch is declining.
Bell wants his touches but the touchdowns are not increasing, even a young, spry Deangelo Williams once scored 20 touchdowns in a season.
Bell wants his touches but he is now fumbling at an alarming rate.

Sorry, but when you look at the whole picture, I do think defenses have learned to play his 'patient style' and that the proof is everything that I have detailed.

Even if they had signed him to a long term contract, they absolutely needed to lessen his touches, we are getting diminishing returns, a second RB to share the load was a top priority. Less touches for Bell will make him more effective, more carries and catches just diminishes him, makes him less effective.

But this is all a moot point now. For those that wonder what life after Bell will look like, well, the proper answer is what did DeAngelo Williams at age 33 look like when he filled in for Bell? There was no drop off at all, in fact the offense scored more points when Williams was in there, there were just as many explosive plays with Williams, maybe more because Williams knew to hit a crease and just go and not dance around and wait, and wait and wait.

You look around at today's NFL and every team appears able to get a decent, functional RB to come in and play immediately and to play well. RB position is the easiest position to draft and the easiest one for early success, even as a rookie. I am not worried at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Great point about teams adjusting to his 'patient' running style Bam. I agree with this too and people disagree and argue with me all the time and ask where is my proof? Well, I point to the fact that in the last two seasons, the last 24 games that he played during the regular season, that he has now become a fumbler.

In 2016 he fumbled 4 times, 3 times rushing, 1 time as a receiver.
In 2017 he fumbled 3 times, 2 times rushing, 1 time as a receiver.

So, in his last 24 games he fumbled 7 times, 3 of those fumbles were recovered by the defense, two of those fumbles thankfully went out of bounds before they could be recovered.

In those 24 games he had 674 touches and he fumbled 7 times, averaging 1 fumble for every 96 touches.

Contrast that to the the first 38 games that he played where he had 867 touches and fumbled just... once. 1 fumble out of 867 touches.

Bell wants his touches but his yards per carry is declining.
Bell wants his touches but his yards per catch is declining.
Bell wants his touches but the touchdowns are not increasing, even a young, spry Deangelo Williams once scored 20 touchdowns in a season.
Bell wants his touches but he is now fumbling at an alarming rate.

Sorry, but when you look at the whole picture, I do think defenses have learned to play his 'patient style' and that the proof is everything that I have detailed.

Even if they had signed him to a long term contract, they absolutely needed to lessen his touches, we are getting diminishing returns, a second RB to share the load was a top priority. Less touches for Bell will make him more effective, more carries and catches just diminishes him, makes him less effective.

But this is all a moot point now. For those that wonder what life after Bell will look like, well, the proper answer is what did DeAngelo Williams at age 33 look like when he filled in for Bell? There was no drop off at all, in fact the offense scored more points when Williams was in there, there were just as many explosive plays with Williams, maybe more because Williams knew to hit a crease and just go and not dance around and wait, and wait and wait.

You look around at today's NFL and every team appears able to get a decent, functional RB to come in and play immediately and to play well. RB position is the easiest position to draft and the easiest one for early success, even as a rookie. I am not worried at all.


Not only that but the two Super Bowl participants last year showed you could equal or better Bell's production by paying minimal cash to multiple RBs that you could switch in and out.

Paying a RB to be a bell cow is unnecessary and foolish.

Pay for some more defense rather than Le'Veon Bell. Get some serviceable running backs and make sure they can pass block.

I don't understand why this concept is causing anyone any difficulty.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:09 pm 
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I agree that bell is replaceable. But the Steelers really really want that bell cow fullback. Bettis, mendenhall, bell...they used Parker like that.

They just NEED that RB in that role. The earth just cannot spin without it.

I agree that you can get a rb any draft. I also can’t wait to see what samuels can do and I’m not sold on conners in anything more than a backup.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Well I can point to some lean RB years between Bettis and Bell. Getting a serviceable back is not as easy as it sounds. The RB can really establish the identity of the offense.

Talking out of both sides of my mouth, coincidence that the lean years coincides with Kirby Wilson?

While this thread is generating buzz, all the Steeler FO has to do is sit back and relax. What to do next season should be spelled out by the end of this season.

If Haley was a bad as everybody thinks he was, then we may have a Beatles scenario at the end of the season where nobody wants to break-up the band.

The stats, record, and post season progress will tell the front office what to do. Sit back and enjoy Bell this year and I think there is a good chance we see him next season too.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:04 am 
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it's still yggy wrote:
I agree that bell is replaceable. But the Steelers really really want that bell cow fullback. Bettis, mendenhall, bell...they used Parker like that.

They just NEED that RB in that role. The earth just cannot spin without it.

I agree that you can get a rb any draft. I also can’t wait to see what samuels can do and I’m not sold on conners in anything more than a backup.


I'm not holding my breath for Samuels. I won't be shocked if he ends up on the practice squad. Precisely because of what you say the brain trust wants out of a RB.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:10 am 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Well I can point to some lean RB years between Bettis and Bell. Getting a serviceable back is not as easy as it sounds. The RB can really establish the identity of the offense.

Talking out of both sides of my mouth, coincidence that the lean years coincides with Kirby Wilson?

While this thread is generating buzz, all the Steeler FO has to do is sit back and relax. What to do next season should be spelled out by the end of this season.

If Haley was a bad as everybody thinks he was, then we may have a Beatles scenario at the end of the season where nobody wants to break-up the band.

The stats, record, and post season progress will tell the front office what to do. Sit back and enjoy Bell this year and I think there is a good chance we see him next season too.


Hope you're right.

I think the heavy criticism on here that Bell's talent is overvalued is delusional. Scunge said his receiving numbers are Heath like. Yeah, he's also become Heath like for Ben as a security blanket.

But the team can't sink that much cash into him. They really can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:24 am 
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This offense is going to keep rolling next season without Leveon Bell... sans a dumpster fire at RB.

I'm saying this again...

IF we get "above the line" play from the RB position next season without Bell, it will not surprise me if the offense has a higher Pts/Dr league ranking than in any season with Bell on the roster up to this point.

Mendenhall
Parker (twice)
Morris

They all saw a SB.

Leveon Bell sans his 2014 season when he did flash Faulk like talent to a degree.... he is overrated. Some of his numbers are empty numbers. Saw this especially during Haley's first few years here when we saw many drives of Bell Bell Bell only to predictably fizzle into a Todd Haley TD. Those Bell numbers on those drives hurt the team. The offense was not run the way it should have been run.

There are empty numbers in sports and we have seen this with Bell.

A player accumulating numbers is not equal to what's best for the team. It's a sports fallacy to argue a players value based on (some) numbers when some of those numbers were not accumulated in a context of what's best for the team.

There is not a more glaring example of my previous statement than the years the then brain dead Russell Westbrook had Kevin Durant on the team for OKC in the NBA. It was volume shooting for Westbrook during those years, kind of like too many touches for Bell.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:03 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
Yeah, he's also become Heath like for Ben as a security blanket.

But the team can't sink that much cash into him. They really can't.


I would argue that Bell becoming Ben's security blanket is actually have a negative effect on this offense. I can get behind Ben throwing to Bell and attacking an offense with malicious intent.

What I can't get behind is Ben throwing to Bell with all of these damn check downs acting as if he is Joe Flacco. No guts no glory!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:55 am 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Well I can point to some lean RB years between Bettis and Bell. Getting a serviceable back is not as easy as it sounds. The RB can really establish the identity of the offense.

Willie Parker, 2008 Mewelde Moore, and Gary Russell say hi.

Those three were really, really good in 2008.

Hell, Mendenhall was pretty damn good in 2010. Good enough to win it all, frankly.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:54 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Well I can point to some lean RB years between Bettis and Bell. Getting a serviceable back is not as easy as it sounds. The RB can really establish the identity of the offense.


We got Lombardi's #5 and #6 during those "lean years".

Our offense was 6th in the league in Pts/Dr in 2005

We got off the "identity of the offense" Bus and ended our Lombardi drought.

The HOF Bus was paired up with some good to great defenses and it didn't mean shit in the post season.

The HOF Bradshaw and Ben... 6

The last time a RB got SB mvp in the entire league was 1998.

Steelers have 6 SB mvp's. Our first one went to RB but that was before the Mel Blount rule in '78 opening up the passing game plus Bradshaw was still learning how to spell cat :) The other 5 went to qb/wr.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Yeah, he's also become Heath like for Ben as a security blanket.

But the team can't sink that much cash into him. They really can't.


I would argue that Bell becoming Ben's security blanket is actually have a negative effect on this offense. I can get behind Ben throwing to Bell and attacking an offense with malicious intent.

What I can't get behind is Ben throwing to Bell with all of these damn check downs acting as if he is Joe Flacco. No guts no glory!!!


Bell is not an average back.

Bell is not a good back.

Bell is a great, arguably elite back.

I do not believe for a second the Steelers are better by subtraction of Bell.
It’s like saying the defense is better because now you can’t lean on Shazier.

Ben throws check downs when there is nothing else he sees to throw to. It’s not like Ben doesn’t like taking shots. Flacco throws check downs because he has nothing to throw to. :lol:

But, you can’t pay Bell the coin he wants.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:28 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Scunge wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Yeah, he's also become Heath like for Ben as a security blanket.

But the team can't sink that much cash into him. They really can't.


I would argue that Bell becoming Ben's security blanket is actually have a negative effect on this offense. I can get behind Ben throwing to Bell and attacking an offense with malicious intent.

What I can't get behind is Ben throwing to Bell with all of these damn check downs acting as if he is Joe Flacco. No guts no glory!!!


Bell is not an average back.

Bell is not a good back.

Bell is a great, arguably elite back.

I do not believe for a second the Steelers are better by subtraction of Bell.
It’s like saying the defense is better because now you can’t lean on Shazier.

Ben throws check downs when there is nothing else he sees to throw to. It’s not like Ben doesn’t like taking shots. Flacco throws check downs because he has nothing to throw to. :lol:

But, you can’t pay Bell the coin he wants.


And yet handing the football to Bell or throwing him the football is inferior to throwing the football vertically to the 2nd year JuJu when you have a HOF qb playing at a high level.

It's not that subtracting talent makes the team better... but sometimes coaches hands have to be forced. I'm hoping Fichtner > Haley and it will be a non issue.

Next season, it will be JuJu's 3rd, Washington's 2nd, and McDonald should still be on the team. I could see that group along with Ben/AB doing serious damage with an average Joe at RB.


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:33 pm 
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I am not sold on the idea that it was exactly Haley that stopped using Bell more down the field in the passing game. I think that the knee injuries have diminished Bell to the point where he simply is not that RB anymore to do what a Gurley or David Johnson does in the passing game. Those teams can use those RBs to attack a defense because they still have their wheels (speed). Bell does not, he is more of a plodding, slow TE in the passing game.

This team is not lacking playmakers now. The days of Bell being targeted 100 times in a season should be over now. With McDonald at TE, JuJu and Washington at WR, Samuels as an H-back, move TE, 3rd down back, Bell should be targeted maybe 70 times this season and catch 55 passes. That would be the best, optimal amount for a team looking to diversify their offense, spread the ball around to ALL of their playmakers and not just force the ball so that one player can pad his career stats.

I am so tired of this fantasy football mentality among some of our star players, it isn't about you touching the ball 500 times (Bell), it isn't about you having 2,000 yards receiving and setting NFL records (Brown), it is about scoring points and winning games and winning championships.

This offense got delirious with Bell and Brown, fell to the easy temptation of just feeding them the ball, thinking that was all it took, but it was too easy and the results haven't given us another Super Bowl ring.

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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:39 am 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
Curious if the opinions On this esteemed board will change with a Super Bowl victory and him having a very stellar season.


I had remembered this statement and wanted to comment on it.

This is a good and interesting question.

If we win the SB it's probably going to be in large part due to a PS historically great offensive run of 30+ ppg avg.

I am generally in favor of keeping a championship band together giving them a chance to defend their title.

It's possible I could change my mind on cutting ties with Bell after this season, depending on how it all plays out (this is all in context of if we bring home the Lombardi). Depends on how much the young RB's show/contribute. Depends on what Bell means to the offense in the PS... in the Lombardi scenario. I do not see us doing this in a Bell centered offense, but at the same time I might be hesitant to mess with what works if the offense is a PS juggernaut and leads us to Lombardi #7.

While I'm on the subject, let me give a fuck you shout out to the dumbass Mark Cuban and his GM Donnie Nelson for not giving the 2011 Mavericks a chance to defend their title. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:50 pm 
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This is probably beating a dead football horse, but this is a new video arguing the Steelers should let Bell walk so I thought I'd post it.

I do not agree that Bell is as good as Gurley at this point in their respective careers and in general I believe he overrates 2018 Bell, but I think the video is worth a watch.



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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Okay, honest question. Do you think the Gurley contract was a panic move by the Rams, because they heard the Steelers might have been close to a deal with Bell for nearly 15 mill/year?

I honestly think it could have been. If Bell had gotten his deal before Gurley got his, Gurley's price would mostly likely had been more as Gurley's numbers are better and he is younger.

Edit: Ignore this post as Kodiak elluded to this back on page 3 ( before I read the whole thread :oops: )


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 Post subject: Re: Todd Gurley Resets the RB Market
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:17 pm 
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alancac98, I think the Rams organization is nuts. That is my professional opinion. :roll:

There they have Aaron Donald, young and dominant, best DT in the game, looking to get paid and with a large amount of cap space do they sign him? No. Instead they:

Signed WR Brandon Cooks to a 5 year $80 million contract even though he hasn't played one game for them yet.

Signed RB Todd Gurley to a 4 year $57 million contract (incentives can get that total to $60 million).

Signed DT Ndamukong Suh to a 1 year $14 million contract (incentives can get that to $15 million).

Signed FS Lamarcus Joyner to the franchise tag of $11.3 million.

Now, yeah, I get that Gurley and Joyner were the right things to do, you have one of the best RBs in the NFL and one of the best FS in the NFL. They are both young, have performed well for you, you drafted them, developed them, so yeah, great to keep them.

But Suh and Cooks? To spend $94 million on them when you have Aaron Donald looking for his second contract? This is a player that you drafted and developed, he is the best there is at his position, and you spend $94 million on Suh and Cooks? Those guys are now playing for their 3rd NFL team, are they really long term solutions? And does an NFL team give out such big money for them?

Donald is money in the bank, you give him a big contract, let him set the market and he is going to earn it and not let you down. I don't understand it, the Rams are looney.

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