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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:30 pm 
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When Ben wasn’t throwing it to AB, it was back-up talent Landry Jones and the corpse of the ghost of Mike Vick.

That tells me NOTHING about what AB would or would not do.

Pair him with say a Stafford and I’d wage business would still be booming.

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:43 pm 
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TB wrote:
Ben makes Brown better and more productive.

Brown makes Ben better and more productive.


I do not know why we couldn't just leave this discussion at that.

The better the wr, the better Ben's numbers will be.

The better the qb, the better AB's numbers will be.

It's not that complicated folks.


Last edited by Havoc on Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:54 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Except that it more or less did when Ben wasn't throwing it.

since 2011
AB without Ben
7G 58 tgt, 32/433... 0TD
per game average:
8 tgt, 60% catch rate, 5/62... 0 TD
rest of career with Ben since 2011:
88G, 1030 tgt, 685/9310, 59TD
per game average
12 tgt, 67% catch rate, 8/106, 1 TD

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
When Ben wasn’t throwing it to AB, it was back-up talent Landry Jones and the corpse of the ghost of Mike Vick.

That tells me NOTHING about what AB would or would not do.

Pair him with say a Stafford and I’d wage business would still be booming.

Stafford's pretty good... more like top 3rd in the NFL.

Last year's average NFL QB, adjusted for opponent somewhere between Dak Prescott and Blake Bortles.

Also, you can't disregard the boldness of many of those throws. Even an above average QB doesn't attempt many of the throws.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:00 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Except that it more or less did when Ben wasn't throwing it.

since 2011
AB without Ben
7G 58 tgt, 32/433... 0TD
per game average:
8 tgt, 60% catch rate, 5/62... 0 TD
rest of career with Ben since 2011:
88G, 1030 tgt, 685/9310, 59TD
per game average
12 tgt, 67% catch rate, 8/106, 1 TD


That's really the bottom line. With most any other QB, he probably gets less targets and a decrease in catchable balls/completions.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:59 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Except that it more or less did when Ben wasn't throwing it.

since 2011
AB without Ben
7G 58 tgt, 32/433... 0TD
per game average:
8 tgt, 60% catch rate, 5/62... 0 TD
rest of career with Ben since 2011:
88G, 1030 tgt, 685/9310, 59TD
per game average
12 tgt, 67% catch rate, 8/106, 1 TD


That's really the bottom line. With most any other QB, he probably gets less targets and a decrease in catchable balls/completions.


This is right, but you can't plug in Mike friggin' Vick and Jones as some kind of argument that AB is only going to do otherworldly things with Ben. Give him a Stafford or Matt Ryan and he'll likely still be unreal. B2B must be trolling us by using those statistics. AB without Ben in this case means AB with back up talent and AB with has-been garbage. It would be more credible if the QBs were are at least starter quality talent.

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:01 am 
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It's definitely a symbiotic relationship.

AB and Ben have a mental connection that no other QB/WR combo in the league have. Here is a fantastic breakdown of just that:



You would have to be a blind homer if you don't think AB makes Ben a better and more productive QB. Most other WRs aren't going to affect Ben's production/level of play, but AB is a special talent and helps bring Ben's play up another level. AB obviously has the perfect situation here and benefits from playing in a system and with a QB designed to give him the ball over and over again, but you can't just act like just because he hasn't had big production with Landry Jones and the corpse of Michael Vick that he's just some product of our QB and that he wouldn't be considered one of the best WRs in the game without Ben. Put AB with Philip Rivers or a Matt Ryan or a healthy Andrew Luck? He'd put up huge numbers. Not a doubt in my mind. And he'd bring up the level of play with whatever QB he'd be with. Replace AB with a Jarvis Landry or a Golden Tate with Ben? Ben is going to still put up big numbers. But put them together? And they bring the absolute best, A+ level that each is capable of when they play together.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:04 am 
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These are some good videos on some of the changes designed to and resulting in reducing the level of defensive resistance over the years in the nba.









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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:07 am 
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R S wrote:
I agree Kodiak. A WR can't be great in a vacuum. You need to have someone good throwing you the ball. Jerry Rice wouldn't have been Jerry Rice if Mike Tomczak was throwing him the ball his entire career. And those poo pooing that Larry Fitz didn't have good QBs, He had Kurt Warner (HOF) and Carson Palmer for the vast majority of his career. Far from scrubs. There were 2-3 season where he had some journeyman.


They got 3 years out of Warner with 26 or more TD's. His next highest total TD throws in a season with them was 11.

Here is the list of qb's at https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/index.htm which does not include every qb who started games, only the qb each season that started the most games for them that particular season.

2004 McCown
2005 Warner
2006 Leinart
2007 Warner
2008 Warner
2009 Warner
2010 Anderson
2011 Kolb
2012 Kolb
2013 Palmer
2014 Stanton
2015 Palmer
2016 Palmer
2017 Palmer

Larry Fitzgerald 6'3" third overall pick in the 2004 draft.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
This is right, but you can't plug in Mike friggin' Vick and Jones as some kind of argument that AB is only going to do otherworldly things with Ben. Give him a Stafford or Matt Ryan and he'll likely still be unreal.


I agree, and I said as much. Although I'm not convinced he's producing top-5 numbers with Stafford or Ryan....honestly, their arm just isn't as good as Ben's.

And I disagree that Ben isn't producing near the same numbers without AB. He's pretty much done it his whole career annd has never been shy about spreading the ball around.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Stafford probably has the strongest arm in the league, what are you talking about him not "having the arm" that Ben does?

Any top WR would produce big #s with a top 8-10ish QB. AB's situation in Pittsburgh is damn near perfect.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
This is right, but you can't plug in Mike friggin' Vick and Jones as some kind of argument that AB is only going to do otherworldly things with Ben. Give him a Stafford or Matt Ryan and he'll likely still be unreal.


I agree, and I said as much. Although I'm not convinced he's producing top-5 numbers with Stafford or Ryan....honestly, their arm just isn't as good as Ben's.

.


I bet Matt Stafford could out distance and out velocity Ben right now


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
This is right, but you can't plug in Mike friggin' Vick and Jones as some kind of argument that AB is only going to do otherworldly things with Ben. Give him a Stafford or Matt Ryan and he'll likely still be unreal.


I agree, and I said as much. Although I'm not convinced he's producing top-5 numbers with Stafford or Ryan....honestly, their arm just isn't as good as Ben's.

.


I bet Matt Stafford could out distance and out velocity Ben right now

I bet he can’t put it in the same windows.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:38 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
I bet he can’t put it in the same windows.


Eh I'd say it's a wash.

Stafford really came alive these past 2 seasons...there's part of me that wonders if he isn't on some sort of PED's with his recent and sudden improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Yes, I know.

Let me rephrase for you then. Do you believe AB is the only wr in the history of the league who, if he gets "competent" qb play and "decent" OL play, is not dependent for anything more than that? In another words, it makes no difference for AB's numbers whether he has Competent Joe throwing him the football or Joe Montana?


I think there is only one player history that could get "his" without having elite talent around him- Barry Sanders. I think that every skill player needs people to do their jobs long enough so they can do their jobs. I think that what AB has a gift for is being a WR that can get open enough for a competent to above average QB to get him the ball. I think if you put AB on any team that has a QB that has been to the Pro Bowl we could make the argument that he could put up the same numbers +/- 5%.

bradshaw2ben wrote:
Except that it more or less did when Ben wasn't throwing it.


We did say that it had to be competent QB play. B2B you know better than anyone here that Jones and Vick aren't where Ben is as far as arm talent and knowledge of the offense. Let's be honest, they are closer to my nephew how likes fashion in talent than they are to Ben.

Let me give you a hypothetical situation only because I believe you actually look at game film. You are an offensive coordinator/qb coach of an NFC team. Your input got them to draft a young high first round QB and you just landed Brown in a trade. Are you quitting knowing that Ben's not coming with him? Or are rubbing your hands together in Christmas kid glee drawing up plays in the dirt knowing if you can get your kid and Brown on the same page as quickly as possible your offense would be dynamite?

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:33 pm 
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TB wrote:
Stafford probably has the strongest arm in the league, what are you talking about him not "having the arm" that Ben does?


Accuracy....throwing hard =/= "great arm" Velocity PLUS accuracy is what I'm talking about. Stafford is inconsistent in that regard. Only guy I've seen with a better arm than Ben is Aaron Rodgers.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:34 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
I bet he can’t put it in the same windows.


Exactly. It's not just about how far or how hard you can throw it. Lots of guys can throw a 90+ mph fastball and never sniffed the majors.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:18 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Havoc wrote:
Yes, I know.

Let me rephrase for you then. Do you believe AB is the only wr in the history of the league who, if he gets "competent" qb play and "decent" OL play, is not dependent for anything more than that? In another words, it makes no difference for AB's numbers whether he has Competent Joe throwing him the football or Joe Montana?


I think there is only one player history that could get "his" without having elite talent around him- Barry Sanders. I think that every skill player needs people to do their jobs long enough so they can do their jobs. I think that what AB has a gift for is being a WR that can get open enough for a competent to above average QB to get him the ball. I think if you put AB on any team that has a QB that has been to the Pro Bowl we could make the argument that he could put up the same numbers +/- 5%.


Sanders didn't do much in the post season.

In 6 playoff games...

Rushing: 386 yds 4.2 Y/A
Receiving: 111 yds 5.3 Y/R
Grand total of 1 TD


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:32 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
Havoc wrote:
Yes, I know.

Let me rephrase for you then. Do you believe AB is the only wr in the history of the league who, if he gets "competent" qb play and "decent" OL play, is not dependent for anything more than that? In another words, it makes no difference for AB's numbers whether he has Competent Joe throwing him the football or Joe Montana?


I think there is only one player history that could get "his" without having elite talent around him- Barry Sanders. I think that every skill player needs people to do their jobs long enough so they can do their jobs. I think that what AB has a gift for is being a WR that can get open enough for a competent to above average QB to get him the ball. I think if you put AB on any team that has a QB that has been to the Pro Bowl we could make the argument that he could put up the same numbers +/- 5%.


Sanders didn't do much in the post season.

In 6 playoff games...

Rushing: 386 yds 4.2 Y/A
Receiving: 111 yds 5.3 Y/R
Grand total of 1 TD



I’m sorry but AB couldn’t hold Barry Sanders’ jock strap. That mother fucker embarrassed people weekly with no one around him.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:42 pm 
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SteelThrillsseeker wrote:
Havoc wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
I think there is only one player history that could get "his" without having elite talent around him- Barry Sanders. I think that every skill player needs people to do their jobs long enough so they can do their jobs. I think that what AB has a gift for is being a WR that can get open enough for a competent to above average QB to get him the ball. I think if you put AB on any team that has a QB that has been to the Pro Bowl we could make the argument that he could put up the same numbers +/- 5%.


Sanders didn't do much in the post season.

In 6 playoff games...

Rushing: 386 yds 4.2 Y/A
Receiving: 111 yds 5.3 Y/R
Grand total of 1 TD



I’m sorry but AB couldn’t hold Barry Sanders’ jock strap. That mother fucker embarrassed people weekly with no one around him.


You and I agree that Sanders was more talented than Emmitt. Sanders was an all time freak talent at rb (among the best). He's not the only one though.

Even Barry needed help in the playoffs.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:01 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
We did say that it had to be competent QB play. B2B you know better than anyone here that Jones and Vick aren't where Ben is as far as arm talent and knowledge of the offense. Let's be honest, they are closer to my nephew how likes fashion in talent than they are to Ben.

QB starts with AB since start of 2011:
charlie batch (3), Leftwich (1), Michael Vick (3), Landry Jones (2)

Would you say, on average, that those 9 starts are about the same as 9 starts from Blake Bortles? That might even be better than Blake Bortles.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:29 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
We did say that it had to be competent QB play. B2B you know better than anyone here that Jones and Vick aren't where Ben is as far as arm talent and knowledge of the offense. Let's be honest, they are closer to my nephew how likes fashion in talent than they are to Ben.

QB starts with AB since start of 2011:
charlie batch (3), Leftwich (1), Michael Vick (3), Landry Jones (2)

Would you say, on average, that those 9 starts are about the same as 9 starts from Blake Bortles? That might even be better than Blake Bortles.


Yea it's too bad those 4 Qbs couldn't face the Steelers defense or else their numbers might be even better!


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:28 am 
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So AB can only do AB things because of Ben, hunh?

I guess someone forgot to tell AB he’s not supposed to be a generational talent when Jones is throwing the ball.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2 ... s-nfl-news

Image

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:46 am 
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love ab . he does amazing things and put up great numbers in pass happy nfl. ab is no jerry rice!


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:36 pm 
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AB is still fucking great, man. Never said he wasn't.

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