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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:25 pm 
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The Steelers late 70's offense was the toast of the NFL.

'78 Our qb was league mvp. Led the league in TD throws.

'79 We had the highest scoring offense in the league. Highest. Scoring. Offense.

Here are the scoring numbers our offense put up in those 2 Lombardi runs...

33, 34, 35, 34, 27, 31 Look at the consistency of those numbers. That's 6 post season games and only 1 under 30 with an average over 30 ppg.

For those 6 games, Swann and Stallworth each caught at least 1 TD every game except 1 game Swann had 0.

Here is the TD consistency from Swann and Stallworth for those 6 games...

Swann... 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1
Stallworth.... 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1

So, this is so much more than several highlight catches in some big moments. These 2 HOF wrs were key players on the most dynamic offense in the league late 70's both rs and ps.


Last edited by Havoc on Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm 
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StillerInCT wrote:
Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


I do not have a problem with this statement, just to be clear.

I got involved in this when someone stated AB's talent blows away the talent of Swann and Stallworth. That, I have a problem with.

Having said all that, AB has a lot more ps work to do, in my view.

Something is missing from this offense in the Ben/AB/Bell era (Haley or no Haley). We do not score enough TD's. Maybe it's largely due to we have never consistently had that 4th impact guy. Hoping it all changes this year with JuJu's 2nd season (and McDonald).


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
StillerInCT wrote:
Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


I do not have a problem with this statement, just to be clear.

I got involved in this when someone stated AB's talent blows away the talent of Swann and Stallworth. That, I have a problem with.

Having said all that, AB has a lot more ps work to do, in my view.

Something is missing from this offense in the Ben/AB/Bell era (Haley or no Haley). We do not score enough TD's. Maybe it's largely due to we have never consistently had that 4th impact guy. Hoping it all changes this year with JuJu's 2nd season (and McDonald).

Steelers were 5th in offensive TDs last year, despite being 16th in number of drives.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:30 am 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is this? Who would you least like to face in their prime if they got traded to another team within the division? The answer is without a doubt- Brown. Say what you want about some weird playoff standard that got Holmes in this conversation (TOTALLY
RIDICULOUS). Or dramatic catches by Stallworth and Swann, but Brown will be the second best WR to play the game when it is over- if only because TD numbers will keep him from being number one.

I love Swann and Stalworth, I have a high regard for Ward, Thigpen, and Lipps. But if Brown gets traded to the Browns, Ravens, or Bengals no one would ever think in a million years that any of those teams gave us a proper return on investment or that it would be a good thing from a competition standpoint. Every one of those WRs could be canceled out with a proper defensive scheme- outside of some rough manhandling by Sherman (most of which should have been called) no one has figured out how to completely stop Antonio Brown.

He did everything in his power in that Jags game 7 for 132 and 2 TDs in a playoff game against the best defense in the league. Happy Birthday to the dude.


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I guess the question you have to ask yourself is this? Who would you least like to face in their prime if they got traded to another team within the division?


Depends on who's throwing him the football.

It might be AB, but...

If 2015 Mike Vick were throwing him the football... I would not lose any sleep over facing AB. At all.

Who in our secondary for the past several years was going to cover the 6'2" Stallworth? A 6'2" RZ target?

In 1984 Stallworth had Mark Malone and David Woodley throwing him the football. We were 8th in offense ppg. That was Lipps rookie season.

Stallworth's numbers that year...

89 REC 1395 YDS 17.4 Y/R 11 TD

Quote:
Brown will be the second best WR to play the game when it is over- if only because TD numbers will keep him from being number one.


That's like saying Emmitt Smith is the greatest RB of all time. There were RB's more talented than Emmitt.

Jerry Rice would not be the guy many think him to be if he did not have Montana/Young throwing him the football nearly his entire career.

I do not believe AB is the 2nd most talented wr to ever play the game. Love AB, love all our great wrs... but I've seen a few who IMO are or were more talented.

I would take Larry Fitzgerald over any of our guys. Might even take him over Rice. Think about what Fitzgerald could have done if he had Montana/Young/Ben throwing him the football his entire career. Outside of a brief stint with Warner, he has never had a HOF level qb feeding him.

AB is Stephan Curry minus the rings. Curry is playing at the right time in nba league history. Put him in the 80's or 90's and he's not going the be the same guy. The physicality of the league those years would not allow the dancing around freely at the 3 point line and when driving to the basket he would have gotten hammered in the no blood no foul league. Similarly, the middle of the field is wide open in nfl league history at the right time for AB's skillet.

The 6'3" Jordy Nelson physical specimen and talented RZ target had 3 seasons of 15 TDs, 14 TDs, 13 TDs


Last edited by Havoc on Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:17 am 
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Great post Havoc.

Larry Fitzgerald with a HOF QB his entire career would of shattered many many records. The QB tossing the rock makes all the difference. Spot on with your Emmit comment. Fuck that guy. For me, Barry Sanders was way more talented. Larry chose the money so that’s on him for staying in the desert. He’ll be another great one without a ring.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:35 am 
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Havoc wrote:
StillerInCT wrote:
Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


I do not have a problem with this statement, just to be clear.

I got involved in this when someone stated AB's talent blows away the talent of Swann and Stallworth. That, I have a problem with.

Having said all that, AB has a lot more ps work to do, in my view.

Something is missing from this offense in the Ben/AB/Bell era (Haley or no Haley). We do not score enough TD's. Maybe it's largely due to we have never consistently had that 4th impact guy. Hoping it all changes this year with JuJu's 2nd season (and McDonald).


I hear you, Havoc. I'd say AB hasn't been given enough chances in the PS, but when he has he's pretty much delivered.

I think the TD problem is sphincter pucker when we get into the RZ. But I agree, I think JuJu and McDonald can change that. Assuming McDonald can string together multiple healthy games.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:24 pm 
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IMHO, Brown's weakness is that he can't physically overcome double teams. He really needs that other threat to help. Julio Jones or Nuc Hopkins can overcome doubles by being able to out jump them.

I still think Brown is the best WR in the NFL but that is his weakness.

I want the Steelers to run more rub routes. That is what helped Rice put up impossible numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:40 pm 
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SteelThrillsseeker wrote:
Great post Havoc.

Larry Fitzgerald with a HOF QB his entire career would of shattered many many records. The QB tossing the rock makes all the difference. Spot on with your Emmit comment. Fuck that guy. For me, Barry Sanders was way more talented. Larry chose the money so that’s on him for staying in the desert. He’ll be another great one without a ring.


Thanks brother.

I watched a lot of the Cardinals 2008 ps. Saw what they were doing. I was nervous heading into SB43. Believed they had a legit tangible chance to beat us.

The 2008 Cards had some rs issues. That was the year Boldin got his face broke. It all came together for them at the right time though.

Put the right players around Warner and when he was on, it was like watching a video game. He was on that ps.

Fitz numbers that ps...

6 REC 101 YDS 1 TD LNG 42
8 REC 166 YDS 1 TD LNG 41
9 REC 152 YDS 3 TD LNG 62
7 REC 127 YDS 2 TD LNG 64


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:

I'll ask it again. Has AB not performed in the playoffs? Has he not made huge plays when needed? Has he not been a dominate player in just about every playoff game he's played?

So how is he not in that group? What, because he hasn't played in a Super Bowl, we're going to pretend everything else he's done doesn't matter?

Get the hell out of here with that load of crap.

You may not be a yinzer, but you're certainly subscribing to yinzer logic.


And you're subscribing to nonsense as usual.

I can tell you love putting words in people's mouths don't you. Who fucking said what he's done doesn't matter? My original post began with "I love AB." I'm not trying to denigrate Brown, but yes. I need to see him get to a Super Bowl like Rice, like Stallworth, like Swann and dominate before I consider him greatest of all time. I'm all broken up you don't like my criteria.

And just what the fuck is "yinzer logic?" Something you made up? Maybe you should pay Nick79 and his imaginary friend, the Typical Yinzer, a visit.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:38 am 
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Agree with Obviously, Havoc, Scunge, Stosh on the WR comp.

And back Obviously completely with his reply to this bullshit about "yinzer logic."


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Every year I see AB doing things on a football field that defy logic. Catches, footwork, balance, in traffic, etc. Things that I don't see and haven't seen on tape from other receivers, past or present.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:31 pm 
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R S wrote:
Every year I see AB doing things on a football field that defy logic. Catches, footwork, balance, in traffic, etc. Things that I don't see and haven't seen on tape from other receivers, past or present.


He kind of has to, because he doesn't have the same physicality or get as much separation as other receivers. Although his ball-hawking skills are grossly underrated - he makes catches that should be impossible for his size and leaping ability.

He has a ton of receptions into impossible windows that only Ben can throw and only AB can catch. IMO, Ben has one of the best arms ever. AB is great, HOF no doubt....but I don't think we're having this conversation if any other than a handful of QB's is throwing AB the ball.

Of course, Jerry Rice wasn't the most physically gifted receiver, either (that honor probably goes to Randy Moss).

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:44 pm 
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I agree Kodiak. A WR can't be great in a vacuum. You need to have someone good throwing you the ball. Jerry Rice wouldn't have been Jerry Rice if Mike Tomczak was throwing him the ball his entire career. And those poo pooing that Larry Fitz didn't have good QBs, He had Kurt Warner (HOF) and Carson Palmer for the vast majority of his career. Far from scrubs. There were 2-3 season where he had some journeyman.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:36 pm 
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R S wrote:
I agree Kodiak. A WR can't be great in a vacuum. You need to have someone good throwing you the ball.


Obviously this is entirely subjective.....but if, say, Matt Stafford or Matt Ryan was throwing AB the ball, the numbers don't nosedive but I could see 200-250 yards and 2 TD's less. Give him Joe Flacco or Eli, and the numbers are even lower and probably not in a top-5 currently conversation.

You're right about Jerry Rice - Montana to Young to Hostetler/Gannon(?). Or look at Randy Moss - he pouted and mailed it in at OAK when he had shit throwing him the ball, but also put up big numbers with less than great QB's in MIN. Megatron on a better team with better QB's could have easily threatened Rice's numbers, if he could have played long enough.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Depends on who's throwing him the football.

It might be AB, but...

If 2015 Mike Vick were throwing him the football... I would not lose any sleep over facing AB. At all.

Who in our secondary for the past several years was going to cover the 6'2" Stallworth? A 6'2" RZ target?

In 1984 Stallworth had Mark Malone and David Woodley throwing him the football. We were 8th in offense ppg. That was Lipps rookie season.

Stallworth's numbers that year...

89 REC 1395 YDS 17.4 Y/R 11 TD

Quote:

Come on Havoc, Mike Vick at the end of his career less than one year in an offense he'd never played before is how we say that Brown is nothing without Ben? Brown has bailed out Ben on many a less than 50/50 ball so many times that Ben just throws it into a spot now. He is a generational WR who can play any receiver position despite being undersized or having top end acceleration.


Havoc wrote:
That's like saying Emmitt Smith is the greatest RB of all time. There were RB's more talented than Emmitt.

Jerry Rice would not be the guy many think him to be if he did not have Montana/Young throwing him the football nearly his entire career.

I do not believe AB is the 2nd most talented wr to ever play the game. Love AB, love all our great wrs... but I've seen a few who IMO are or were more talented.


No one is talking talent here we are talking BEST. The most talented WR of all time is Randy Moss- I don't think that is up for debate. Brown is the best because he consistently does things that we only see once or twice from the other ones.

Havoc wrote:
AB is Stephan Curry minus the rings. Curry is playing at the right time in nba league history. Put him in the 80's or 90's and he's not going the be the same guy. The physicality of the league those years would not allow the dancing around freely at the 3 point line and when driving to the basket he would have gotten hammered in the no blood no foul league. Similarly, the middle of the field is wide open in nfl league history at the right time for AB's skillet.


There has never been a physical defense for a guy shooting and making consistently 27 feet from the basket. Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen all made their living out there and anything over 40% would suddenly make the team job of getting baskets elsewhere easier. Curry takes a 35 footer and makes them like he's shooting layups and in any generation that is great. Drazen Petrovic is the last time the old timers saw shot making on Curry's level. And Petrovic has the unfortunate fate of being a Net in a time where you couldn't leave for a better team- before he passed. RIP.

Brown's work is not only in that zone, its mainly near or outside the hash- he'll take a drag with the CB in a trail technique but he's not paying bills in there. And those LBs are busy trying to prevent a 30 yard completion to a TE not intidating a 7 yard drag. Game has changed not the rules per se.

Havoc wrote:
The 6'3" Jordy Nelson physical specimen and talented RZ target had 3 seasons of 15 TDs, 14 TDs, 13 TDs


And their offense gets a lot of single and zone coverage in the RZ because you can man or double down there because you have to allow for Rodgers running ability. Green Bays RZ offense is prolific because Rodgers constantly puts the pressure on defenses to decide between giving a passing crease or letting him run the ball into the end zone. Our offense doesn't do that anymore because... well you know.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:30 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Havoc wrote:
There has never been a physical defense for a guy shooting and making consistently 27 feet from the basket. Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen all made their living out there and anything over 40% would suddenly make the team job of getting baskets elsewhere easier. Curry takes a 35 footer and makes them like he's shooting layups and in any generation that is great. Drazen Petrovic is the last time the old timers saw shot making on Curry's level. And Petrovic has the unfortunate fate of being a Net in a time where you couldn't leave for a better team- before he passed. RIP.


I did not clarify my statement on Curry. He still would have been a star player.

Curry is a 2 time rs mvp. His team has won 3 of the 4 past nba finals. Total number of Curry's finals mvp's... zero. Kevin Durant is the more physically gifted player.

Bird averaged 1.9 three point attempts per game for his career (rs). That is not where he made his HOF basketball living. Bird was a scorer, not just a guy who spotted up at the 3 point line with arms open waiting for a pass. He was also an elite passer. When the basketall was in his hands, he had immence control of the floor. Big difference between a shooter and a scorer in that league.

The nba changed rules to make it easier for skills players. They did it because defense matters. You know this.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:51 am 
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Havoc wrote:
The nba changed rules to make it easier for skills players. They did it because defense matters. You know this.


Very true.

But you're being very dismissive of Curry. He creates his own shots. He's like the great post players of yesteryear.....but from 25+ feet.


Lebron may be the best I've ever seen. But then there is Jordan. And then there is Curry. I don't know what else to say.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:24 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Havoc wrote:
The nba changed rules to make it easier for skills players. They did it because defense matters. You know this.


Very true.

But you're being very dismissive of Curry. He creates his own shots. He's like the great post players of yesteryear.....but from 25+ feet.


Lebron may be the best I've ever seen. But then there is Jordan. And then there is Curry. I don't know what else to say.


I never said Curry didn't create his own shot. He does. He's a scorer.

I do not know what your last sentence means.

Kevin Durant is the bigger badder man. He is physically more gifted because of his size (and length) compared to the 6'3" Curry.

The year the Warriors won the finals before Durant... Curry still didn't get finals mvp. That was the year the 6'4" nobody Matthew Dellavedova physically beat Curry's ass a good part of the finals.

Curry has never put a team on his back thru an nba post season championship run.

Curry is a great player. And limited due to size. Not sure why that's difficult to understand.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:26 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
He's like the great post players of yesteryear.....but from 25+ feet.


Not true Kodiak.

Posting up inherently means there is physical contact with the defender often before the player posting up even receives the basketball.

Jump shots mean trying to avoid contact.

Kodiak wrote:
Lebron may be the best I've ever seen. But then there is Jordan. And then there is Curry. I don't know what else to say.


There is a long list of players ahead of Curry in terms of post season impact.

It appears the FO wants to pair up AB with size (and I agree). We drafted the 6'4" Martavis, now we have the 6'2" physical beast JuJu. They also drafted the 6'5" Sweed in the 2nd round.

JuJu has a chance to turn into a RZ stud for us.


Last edited by Havoc on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:54 am 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Come on Havoc, Mike Vick at the end of his career less than one year in an offense he'd never played before is how we say that Brown is nothing without Ben? Brown has bailed out Ben on many a less than 50/50 ball so many times that Ben just throws it into a spot now. He is a generational WR who can play any receiver position despite being undersized or having top end acceleration.


I did not say AB is nothing without Ben. AB is a great wr no matter the qb, but his numbers would not be the same with a poor qb throwing him the football.

And his numbers would not be the same if he was paired up with another stud wr his entire career. Scunge is right, if this offense ever becomes the best in the league, AB's numbers are going down (at least in terms of receptions and yards). He will get less targets. Bad for AB's numbers (at least in terms of receptions and yards) but better for the offense.

There will probably be some Saints fans pointing to Brees passing yards claiming him the greatest of all time when he breaks the all time passing yards record this season. Hey, that's fandom. But it's not a good analysis.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:27 am 
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Ben makes Brown better and more productive.

Brown makes Ben better and more productive.

Replace Ben with a below average level starting QB and Brown's numbers would take a noticeable dip.
Replace Brown with a below average level starting WR and Ben's numbers would take a noticeable dip.

Pretty wild shit. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:33 am 
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TB wrote:
Ben makes Brown better and more productive.

Brown makes Ben better and more productive.

Replace Ben with a below average level starting QB and Brown's numbers would take a noticeable dip.
Replace Brown with a below average level starting WR and Ben's numbers would take a noticeable dip.


Agreed


Last edited by Havoc on Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:28 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Brown's work is not only in that zone, its mainly near or outside the hash- he'll take a drag with the CB in a trail technique but he's not paying bills in there. And those LBs are busy trying to prevent a 30 yard completion to a TE not intidating a 7 yard drag. Game has changed not the rules per se.


AB dominates the entire field between the 20's.

Come on, Veritas, the game has changed in the Goodell era (not to mention changes in past eras) making it easier for offensive skills players. You know this.


Last edited by Havoc on Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
TB wrote:
Ben makes Brown better and more productive.

Brown makes Ben better and more productive.

Replace Ben with a below average level starting QB and Brown's numbers would take a noticeable dip.
Replace Brown with a below average level starting WR and Ben's numbers would take a noticeable dip.


Agreed.


Without being Captain Obvious here but come on. How is this a debate if we are talking about a below average replacement? Ben has had the opportunity to throw to Hines Ward, Manny Sanders (who is better than most of the people here gave him credit for), Holmes (when he played hard), and a great albeit troubled talent in Martvais Bryant, among others like Randall El, Wheaton, Rodgers, Sanders and Miller. Did Ben make any of those guys HOFers or the best at their position? Nope.

And while I will not diminish any of Bens accomplishments or talent to make my point. However, Ben is throwing to a spot and Brown is better than the guys covering him in positioning himself to make the catch- that is not dependent on Ben. I will say that in another offense with a competent QB and a decent OL Brown would still be Brown- he doesn't need Ben to do that. Ben is not there putting Brown's feet down with wires or using a leaf blower to push the ball back into his hands or gluing velcro on his helmet- Brown does that kind of stuff on his own seemingly every game.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:32 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
Havoc wrote:
TB wrote:
Ben makes Brown better and more productive.

Brown makes Ben better and more productive.

Replace Ben with a below average level starting QB and Brown's numbers would take a noticeable dip.
Replace Brown with a below average level starting WR and Ben's numbers would take a noticeable dip.


Agreed.


Without being Captain Obvious here but come on. How is this a debate if we are talking about a below average replacement? Ben has had the opportunity to throw to Hines Ward, Manny Sanders (who is better than most of the people here gave him credit for), Holmes (when he played hard), and a great albeit troubled talent in Martvais Bryant, among others like Randall El, Wheaton, Rodgers, Sanders and Miller. Did Ben make any of those guys HOFers or the best at their position? Nope.

And while I will not diminish any of Bens accomplishments or talent to make my point. However, Ben is throwing to a spot and Brown is better than the guys covering him in positioning himself to make the catch- that is not dependent on Ben. I will say that in another offense with a competent QB and a decent OL Brown would still be Brown- he doesn't need Ben to do that. Ben is not there putting Brown's feet down with wires or using a leaf blower to push the ball back into his hands or gluing velcro on his helmet- Brown does that kind of stuff on his own seemingly every game.

you're dismissing out of hand the incredible accuracy of most of those throws and how it plays into AB making the great plays

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FORUM RULES --- PRIVACY POLICY




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