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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:02 am 
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I'm a big believer in the difference between rs and ps competition in football, basketball, and baseball.

In all 3 sports, ps is like being in a higher league. Not all rs skillsets apply equally.

Swann was a leaper. Could jump out of the gym. I remember him jumping over the high jump bar like a hurdler landing on his feet while other guys in the competition I previously mentioned could not do that.

AB has better in space quickness than Swann. AB dominates in today's game between the 20's.

Ben's game winner to Holmes in SB43... remember how tight that window was? Replace Holmes with AB and that window is the same. Replace Holmes with Swann and that windows gets bigger due to Swann's superior leaping ability.

In today's game, I might take AB over Swann between the 20's. I might take Swann over AB in the RZ.

If I were starting a team, I might choose players with the RZ in mind. It's so important.

AB, as great as he is... is not the perfect wr. There is an advantage to having a 6'2" Stallworth being able to reach up and snatch the football out of the air Moss-like. There is an advantage to Swann's leaping ability to go up and get it for you.

So no, as great as AB is, it's not cut and dried. PS comparison to Swann, Stalls, Holmes, Ward... AB hasn't done that much (yet)

Jack Nicklaus to reporters who were already crowning a still young Tiger Woods who at that point wasn't even sniffing Jack's record of 18 majors...

"Doesn't he have to do it first?".


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:04 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
draw your own conclusions, but damn we ran a lot of screens in the red zone. Those listed are just the ones that DIDN'T work.


I've said it many times over the last 3-4-5 years.

One of the reasons the Steelers are not as successful in scoring more TD's than FG's is.....

The Steelers too often, run plays to get closer to the endzone, rather than plays to get into the endzone.

- I dread the first and goal at the 9 or 10, knowing 1st down is very likely a run or WR screen to get closer to the endzone,
when in fact 1st and goal at the 9 or 10 will provide the most space for offensive weapons and the larger passing lanes for Ben.

- I watch too much football of other teams to understand, that far less talented teams, offenses, players,.............score easy TD's thru scheme, deception and simply fooling the defense when they are inside the 5.
- Players breaking free and wide open in the endzone, play action, heavy set - play action.
- QB roll out to extend play, get defenders moving, or moving in the wrong direction.

The PS do not do much of that.
Its too much of heavy set runs into a run play.
Or 4-5 wide pass sets......with a pass play.
Way too predictable.

Hoping Fitchner and Ben can improve on scoring 7's and less 3's in 2018

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:05 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Havoc wrote:
What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.

Winning post season is also about whether the rest of the team comes up big.


I don't know why this point gets lost on people. It's a team game. A hell of a lot goes into winning or losing a football game. We literally won a SB where our QB completed 9 passes to our guys and threw two INTs to the other guys. Drew Brees lost a playoff game completing 39 passes for over 400 yards with no turnovers and scoring 36 points.

We won 1 playoff game with Bruce Arians where the D or STs didn't score a TD. The one game where we didn't have a D or STs TD was the Baltimore game in '11 where the D created three consecutive turnovers in the third quarter, all on Baltimore's side of the field, leading to scoring drives of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points and the offense that day had 263 yards total. That also happened to be AB's first playoff game, a game where he caught the essential go-ahead score with a 58 yard catch on third and forever to set us up for a TD. A game that very well could have gone to OT or perhaps a Baltimore win if Anquan Boldin doesn't drop a TD catch on third down and Baltimore settles for a FG late, or if Houshmandzadeh doesn't drop a pass on 4th down that would have put them at our 35 yard line on their last drive.

Team game fellas. Brown has over 100 yards receiving in 5 of his last 6 playoff games and 4 TDs in those 6 games. He's doing his part.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:14 am 
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TB wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
Havoc wrote:
What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.

Winning post season is also about whether the rest of the team comes up big.


I don't know why this point gets lost on people. It's a team game. A hell of a lot goes into winning or losing a football game. We literally won a SB where our QB completed 9 passes to our guys and threw two INTs to the other guys. Drew Brees lost a playoff game completing 39 passes for over 400 yards with no turnovers and scoring 36 points.

We won 1 playoff game with Bruce Arians where the D or STs didn't score a TD. The one game where we didn't have a D or STs TD was the Baltimore game in '11 where the D created three consecutive turnovers in the third quarter, all on Baltimore's side of the field, leading to scoring drives of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points and the offense that day had 263 yards total. That also happened to be AB's first playoff game, a game where he caught the essential go-ahead score with a 58 yard catch on third and forever to set us up for a TD. A game that very well could have gone to OT or perhaps a Baltimore win if Anquan Boldin doesn't drop a TD catch on third down and Baltimore settles for a FG late, or if Houshmandzadeh doesn't drop a pass on 4th down that would have put them at our 35 yard line on their last drive.

Team game fellas. Brown has over 100 yards receiving in 5 of his last 6 playoff games and 4 TDs in those 6 games. He's doing his part.


Read the bolded.


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
draw your own conclusions, but damn we ran a lot of screens in the red zone. Those listed are just the ones that DIDN'T work.


I've said it many times over the last 3-4-5 years.

One of the reasons the Steelers are not as successful in scoring more TD's than FG's is.....

The Steelers too often, run plays to get closer to the endzone, rather than plays to get into the endzone.

- I dread the first and goal at the 9 or 10, knowing 1st down is very likely a run or WR screen to get closer to the endzone,
when in fact 1st and goal at the 9 or 10 will provide the most space for offensive weapons and the larger passing lanes for Ben.

- I watch too much football of other teams to understand, that far less talented teams, offenses, players,.............score easy TD's thru scheme, deception and simply fooling the defense when they are inside the 5.
- Players breaking free and wide open in the endzone, play action, heavy set - play action.
- QB roll out to extend play, get defenders moving, or moving in the wrong direction.

The PS do not do much of that.
Its too much of heavy set runs into a run play.
Or 4-5 wide pass sets......with a pass play.
Way too predictable.

Hoping Fitchner and Ben can improve on scoring 7's and less 3's in 2018

I think a lot has to do with personnel sent into the game to force play calls. By that I mean, having reviewed all those red zone plays, it's apparent that a lot of the incompletions were run play calls with heavy personnel formations sent in... when the defense sent its heavy people and crowded the box, we audibled into fairly simplistic pass play calls, which either succeeded or failed based on the matchups.

Is it the guy audibilizing who is the problem? Or the original play call? Or the personnel sent in? Or the mindset of getting closer, rather than trying to score? Or the fact that the audibles are overly simple?

There were occasions where a guy was schemed open, and it was like magic (unless they dropped the wide open pass... at least twice in the first 8 games). Eli Rogers ran slants, crossing routes and sit-down curls all season; when he ran a diamond (slant in, then slant out) he was so wide open that it was embarrassing. Same thing when Martavis ran a DIG route last year, after running maybe one before that in his entire Steelers career. Think it was vs Detroit and the defender was so shocked that he basically fell down in disbelief.

Predictability was a big issue last couple of years.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:02 pm 
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I think AB has been great in his post season chances. Just look at the Jaguars game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvyn9rU_WCc

The first catch is basically one handed with coverage draped on him. The 2nd he's pretty much getting held all the way down the sideline.

And let's not forget...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3lIHIyXLs

Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


For your enjoyment (Not for arguments sake)...24 minutes of AB highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSA4TfXpXaA

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:30 pm 
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StillerInCT wrote:
I think AB has been great in his post season chances. Just look at the Jaguars game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvyn9rU_WCc

The first catch is basically one handed with coverage draped on him. The 2nd he's pretty much getting held all the way down the sideline.

And let's not forget...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3lIHIyXLs

Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


For your enjoyment (Not for arguments sake)...24 minutes of AB highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSA4TfXpXaA


Ahem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhWHFxUlTlo

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:36 pm 
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I guess the question you have to ask yourself is this? Who would you least like to face in their prime if they got traded to another team within the division? The answer is without a doubt- Brown. Say what you want about some weird playoff standard that got Holmes in this conversation (TOTALLY
RIDICULOUS). Or dramatic catches by Stallworth and Swann, but Brown will be the second best WR to play the game when it is over- if only because TD numbers will keep him from being number one.

I love Swann and Stalworth, I have a high regard for Ward, Thigpen, and Lipps. But if Brown gets traded to the Browns, Ravens, or Bengals no one would ever think in a million years that any of those teams gave us a proper return on investment or that it would be a good thing from a competition standpoint. Every one of those WRs could be canceled out with a proper defensive scheme- outside of some rough manhandling by Sherman (most of which should have been called) no one has figured out how to completely stop Antonio Brown.

He did everything in his power in that Jags game 7 for 132 and 2 TDs in a playoff game against the best defense in the league. Happy Birthday to the dude.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Obviously wrote:
You've got to come up big in the biggest situations like the aforementioned. Swann MVP X. Ward MVP XL. Stallworth should have been MVP XIV. AB hasn't come up big like that yet.


Ummm, what?!?

Excluding his rookie year, AB has averaged 6.5 catches and 106 yards per playoff game and has consistently been the guy that has come through when most of the players around him haven't.

JAX last year was a fantastic example of that. He had 132 yards and 2 TDs despite playing hurt and against one of the best corners in the game (who had safety help, to boot). Every time JAX would seem to do something to pull away, AB was right there with another big play to get us back in it.

If you're trying to say AB isn't better than those guys specifically because he hasn't made those plays in a Super Bowl, then I'm going to counter by saying that's some insane yinzer criteria specifically meant to protect the legacy of a bunch of retired guys you're afraid of somehow tarnishing.

Cause I look at what AB has done, especially in the playoffs, and think he's met and surpassed all of those guys. He's made huge plays when needed and always seems to come through when needed. Just because those plays haven't happened in a Super Bowl means jack squat, considering you can't possibly put him at fault for that.


Not a yinzer, but nice try slapping your labels on me.

And just to spoil your misconceptions about me, I'd love nothing more than for AB to surpass the three guys I mentioned. Just like I would love for Tomlin to be the best head coach in Steelers history.

Havoc is spot on with his post.


I'll ask it again. Has AB not performed in the playoffs? Has he not made huge plays when needed? Has he not been a dominate player in just about every playoff game he's played?

So how is he not in that group? What, because he hasn't played in a Super Bowl, we're going to pretend everything else he's done doesn't matter?

Get the hell out of here with that load of crap.

You may not be a yinzer, but you're certainly subscribing to yinzer logic.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:

I'll ask it again. Has AB not performed in the playoffs? Has he not made huge plays when needed? Has he not been a dominate player in just about every playoff game he's played?

So how is he not in that group? What, because he hasn't played in a Super Bowl, we're going to pretend everything else he's done doesn't matter?

Get the hell out of here with that load of crap.

You may not be a yinzer, but you're certainly subscribing to yinzer logic.


Have you not been entertained? Seemed the right thing to say after your post. I agree. Here are his playoff stats


2010 PIT 3 0 5 8 90 18.0 30.0 58 0 2 0 0 33
2011 PIT 1 0 5 7 70 14.0 70.0 25 0 4 0 0 19
2014 PIT 1 1 9 14 117 13.0 117.0 44 0 5 0 0 28
2015 PIT 1 1 7 12 119 17.0 119.0 60 0 4 0 0 75
2016 PIT 3 3 18 29 309 17.2 103.0 62 2 11 0 0 167
2017 PIT 1 1 7 11 132 18.9 132.0 43 2 5 0 0 20

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