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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:02 am 
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I'm a big believer in the difference between rs and ps competition in football, basketball, and baseball.

In all 3 sports, ps is like being in a higher league. Not all rs skillsets apply equally.

Swann was a leaper. Could jump out of the gym. I remember him jumping over the high jump bar like a hurdler landing on his feet while other guys in the competition I previously mentioned could not do that.

AB has better in space quickness than Swann. AB dominates in today's game between the 20's.

Ben's game winner to Holmes in SB43... remember how tight that window was? Replace Holmes with AB and that window is the same. Replace Holmes with Swann and that windows gets bigger due to Swann's superior leaping ability.

In today's game, I might take AB over Swann between the 20's. I might take Swann over AB in the RZ.

If I were starting a team, I might choose players with the RZ in mind. It's so important.

AB, as great as he is... is not the perfect wr. There is an advantage to having a 6'2" Stallworth being able to reach up and snatch the football out of the air Moss-like. There is an advantage to Swann's leaping ability to go up and get it for you.

So no, as great as AB is, it's not cut and dried. PS comparison to Swann, Stalls, Holmes, Ward... AB hasn't done that much (yet)

Jack Nicklaus to reporters who were already crowning a still young Tiger Woods who at that point wasn't even sniffing Jack's record of 18 majors...

"Doesn't he have to do it first?".


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:04 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
draw your own conclusions, but damn we ran a lot of screens in the red zone. Those listed are just the ones that DIDN'T work.


I've said it many times over the last 3-4-5 years.

One of the reasons the Steelers are not as successful in scoring more TD's than FG's is.....

The Steelers too often, run plays to get closer to the endzone, rather than plays to get into the endzone.

- I dread the first and goal at the 9 or 10, knowing 1st down is very likely a run or WR screen to get closer to the endzone,
when in fact 1st and goal at the 9 or 10 will provide the most space for offensive weapons and the larger passing lanes for Ben.

- I watch too much football of other teams to understand, that far less talented teams, offenses, players,.............score easy TD's thru scheme, deception and simply fooling the defense when they are inside the 5.
- Players breaking free and wide open in the endzone, play action, heavy set - play action.
- QB roll out to extend play, get defenders moving, or moving in the wrong direction.

The PS do not do much of that.
Its too much of heavy set runs into a run play.
Or 4-5 wide pass sets......with a pass play.
Way too predictable.

Hoping Fitchner and Ben can improve on scoring 7's and less 3's in 2018

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:05 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Havoc wrote:
What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.

Winning post season is also about whether the rest of the team comes up big.


I don't know why this point gets lost on people. It's a team game. A hell of a lot goes into winning or losing a football game. We literally won a SB where our QB completed 9 passes to our guys and threw two INTs to the other guys. Drew Brees lost a playoff game completing 39 passes for over 400 yards with no turnovers and scoring 36 points.

We won 1 playoff game with Bruce Arians where the D or STs didn't score a TD. The one game where we didn't have a D or STs TD was the Baltimore game in '11 where the D created three consecutive turnovers in the third quarter, all on Baltimore's side of the field, leading to scoring drives of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points and the offense that day had 263 yards total. That also happened to be AB's first playoff game, a game where he caught the essential go-ahead score with a 58 yard catch on third and forever to set us up for a TD. A game that very well could have gone to OT or perhaps a Baltimore win if Anquan Boldin doesn't drop a TD catch on third down and Baltimore settles for a FG late, or if Houshmandzadeh doesn't drop a pass on 4th down that would have put them at our 35 yard line on their last drive.

Team game fellas. Brown has over 100 yards receiving in 5 of his last 6 playoff games and 4 TDs in those 6 games. He's doing his part.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:14 am 
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TB wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
Havoc wrote:
What Swann and Stallworth accomplished post season > than what Ab has accomplished post season. You can add Holmes to that list and arguably Ward too.

I'm not saying it's AB's fault. A lot of what happens in sports is about opportunity.

Winning post season is also about whether the rest of the team comes up big.


I don't know why this point gets lost on people. It's a team game. A hell of a lot goes into winning or losing a football game. We literally won a SB where our QB completed 9 passes to our guys and threw two INTs to the other guys. Drew Brees lost a playoff game completing 39 passes for over 400 yards with no turnovers and scoring 36 points.

We won 1 playoff game with Bruce Arians where the D or STs didn't score a TD. The one game where we didn't have a D or STs TD was the Baltimore game in '11 where the D created three consecutive turnovers in the third quarter, all on Baltimore's side of the field, leading to scoring drives of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points and the offense that day had 263 yards total. That also happened to be AB's first playoff game, a game where he caught the essential go-ahead score with a 58 yard catch on third and forever to set us up for a TD. A game that very well could have gone to OT or perhaps a Baltimore win if Anquan Boldin doesn't drop a TD catch on third down and Baltimore settles for a FG late, or if Houshmandzadeh doesn't drop a pass on 4th down that would have put them at our 35 yard line on their last drive.

Team game fellas. Brown has over 100 yards receiving in 5 of his last 6 playoff games and 4 TDs in those 6 games. He's doing his part.


Read the bolded.


Last edited by Havoc on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
draw your own conclusions, but damn we ran a lot of screens in the red zone. Those listed are just the ones that DIDN'T work.


I've said it many times over the last 3-4-5 years.

One of the reasons the Steelers are not as successful in scoring more TD's than FG's is.....

The Steelers too often, run plays to get closer to the endzone, rather than plays to get into the endzone.

- I dread the first and goal at the 9 or 10, knowing 1st down is very likely a run or WR screen to get closer to the endzone,
when in fact 1st and goal at the 9 or 10 will provide the most space for offensive weapons and the larger passing lanes for Ben.

- I watch too much football of other teams to understand, that far less talented teams, offenses, players,.............score easy TD's thru scheme, deception and simply fooling the defense when they are inside the 5.
- Players breaking free and wide open in the endzone, play action, heavy set - play action.
- QB roll out to extend play, get defenders moving, or moving in the wrong direction.

The PS do not do much of that.
Its too much of heavy set runs into a run play.
Or 4-5 wide pass sets......with a pass play.
Way too predictable.

Hoping Fitchner and Ben can improve on scoring 7's and less 3's in 2018

I think a lot has to do with personnel sent into the game to force play calls. By that I mean, having reviewed all those red zone plays, it's apparent that a lot of the incompletions were run play calls with heavy personnel formations sent in... when the defense sent its heavy people and crowded the box, we audibled into fairly simplistic pass play calls, which either succeeded or failed based on the matchups.

Is it the guy audibilizing who is the problem? Or the original play call? Or the personnel sent in? Or the mindset of getting closer, rather than trying to score? Or the fact that the audibles are overly simple?

There were occasions where a guy was schemed open, and it was like magic (unless they dropped the wide open pass... at least twice in the first 8 games). Eli Rogers ran slants, crossing routes and sit-down curls all season; when he ran a diamond (slant in, then slant out) he was so wide open that it was embarrassing. Same thing when Martavis ran a DIG route last year, after running maybe one before that in his entire Steelers career. Think it was vs Detroit and the defender was so shocked that he basically fell down in disbelief.

Predictability was a big issue last couple of years.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:02 pm 
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I think AB has been great in his post season chances. Just look at the Jaguars game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvyn9rU_WCc

The first catch is basically one handed with coverage draped on him. The 2nd he's pretty much getting held all the way down the sideline.

And let's not forget...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3lIHIyXLs

Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


For your enjoyment (Not for arguments sake)...24 minutes of AB highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSA4TfXpXaA

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:30 pm 
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StillerInCT wrote:
I think AB has been great in his post season chances. Just look at the Jaguars game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvyn9rU_WCc

The first catch is basically one handed with coverage draped on him. The 2nd he's pretty much getting held all the way down the sideline.

And let's not forget...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-3lIHIyXLs

Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


For your enjoyment (Not for arguments sake)...24 minutes of AB highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSA4TfXpXaA


Ahem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhWHFxUlTlo

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:36 pm 
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I guess the question you have to ask yourself is this? Who would you least like to face in their prime if they got traded to another team within the division? The answer is without a doubt- Brown. Say what you want about some weird playoff standard that got Holmes in this conversation (TOTALLY
RIDICULOUS). Or dramatic catches by Stallworth and Swann, but Brown will be the second best WR to play the game when it is over- if only because TD numbers will keep him from being number one.

I love Swann and Stalworth, I have a high regard for Ward, Thigpen, and Lipps. But if Brown gets traded to the Browns, Ravens, or Bengals no one would ever think in a million years that any of those teams gave us a proper return on investment or that it would be a good thing from a competition standpoint. Every one of those WRs could be canceled out with a proper defensive scheme- outside of some rough manhandling by Sherman (most of which should have been called) no one has figured out how to completely stop Antonio Brown.

He did everything in his power in that Jags game 7 for 132 and 2 TDs in a playoff game against the best defense in the league. Happy Birthday to the dude.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Obviously wrote:
You've got to come up big in the biggest situations like the aforementioned. Swann MVP X. Ward MVP XL. Stallworth should have been MVP XIV. AB hasn't come up big like that yet.


Ummm, what?!?

Excluding his rookie year, AB has averaged 6.5 catches and 106 yards per playoff game and has consistently been the guy that has come through when most of the players around him haven't.

JAX last year was a fantastic example of that. He had 132 yards and 2 TDs despite playing hurt and against one of the best corners in the game (who had safety help, to boot). Every time JAX would seem to do something to pull away, AB was right there with another big play to get us back in it.

If you're trying to say AB isn't better than those guys specifically because he hasn't made those plays in a Super Bowl, then I'm going to counter by saying that's some insane yinzer criteria specifically meant to protect the legacy of a bunch of retired guys you're afraid of somehow tarnishing.

Cause I look at what AB has done, especially in the playoffs, and think he's met and surpassed all of those guys. He's made huge plays when needed and always seems to come through when needed. Just because those plays haven't happened in a Super Bowl means jack squat, considering you can't possibly put him at fault for that.


Not a yinzer, but nice try slapping your labels on me.

And just to spoil your misconceptions about me, I'd love nothing more than for AB to surpass the three guys I mentioned. Just like I would love for Tomlin to be the best head coach in Steelers history.

Havoc is spot on with his post.


I'll ask it again. Has AB not performed in the playoffs? Has he not made huge plays when needed? Has he not been a dominate player in just about every playoff game he's played?

So how is he not in that group? What, because he hasn't played in a Super Bowl, we're going to pretend everything else he's done doesn't matter?

Get the hell out of here with that load of crap.

You may not be a yinzer, but you're certainly subscribing to yinzer logic.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:

I'll ask it again. Has AB not performed in the playoffs? Has he not made huge plays when needed? Has he not been a dominate player in just about every playoff game he's played?

So how is he not in that group? What, because he hasn't played in a Super Bowl, we're going to pretend everything else he's done doesn't matter?

Get the hell out of here with that load of crap.

You may not be a yinzer, but you're certainly subscribing to yinzer logic.


Have you not been entertained? Seemed the right thing to say after your post. I agree. Here are his playoff stats


2010 PIT 3 0 5 8 90 18.0 30.0 58 0 2 0 0 33
2011 PIT 1 0 5 7 70 14.0 70.0 25 0 4 0 0 19
2014 PIT 1 1 9 14 117 13.0 117.0 44 0 5 0 0 28
2015 PIT 1 1 7 12 119 17.0 119.0 60 0 4 0 0 75
2016 PIT 3 3 18 29 309 17.2 103.0 62 2 11 0 0 167
2017 PIT 1 1 7 11 132 18.9 132.0 43 2 5 0 0 20

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:25 pm 
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The Steelers late 70's offense was the toast of the NFL.

'78 Our qb was league mvp. Led the league in TD throws.

'79 We had the highest scoring offense in the league. Highest. Scoring. Offense.

Here are the scoring numbers our offense put up in those 2 Lombardi runs...

33, 34, 35, 34, 27, 31 Look at the consistency of those numbers. That's 6 post season games and only 1 under 30 with an average over 30 ppg.

For those 6 games, Swann and Stallworth each caught at least 1 TD every game except 1 game Swann had 0.

Here is the TD consistency from Swann and Stallworth for those 6 games...

Swann... 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1
Stallworth.... 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1

So, this is so much more than several highlight catches in some big moments. These 2 HOF wrs were key players on the most dynamic offense in the league late 70's both rs and ps.


Last edited by Havoc on Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm 
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StillerInCT wrote:
Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


I do not have a problem with this statement, just to be clear.

I got involved in this when someone stated AB's talent blows away the talent of Swann and Stallworth. That, I have a problem with.

Having said all that, AB has a lot more ps work to do, in my view.

Something is missing from this offense in the Ben/AB/Bell era (Haley or no Haley). We do not score enough TD's. Maybe it's largely due to we have never consistently had that 4th impact guy. Hoping it all changes this year with JuJu's 2nd season (and McDonald).


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
StillerInCT wrote:
Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


I do not have a problem with this statement, just to be clear.

I got involved in this when someone stated AB's talent blows away the talent of Swann and Stallworth. That, I have a problem with.

Having said all that, AB has a lot more ps work to do, in my view.

Something is missing from this offense in the Ben/AB/Bell era (Haley or no Haley). We do not score enough TD's. Maybe it's largely due to we have never consistently had that 4th impact guy. Hoping it all changes this year with JuJu's 2nd season (and McDonald).

Steelers were 5th in offensive TDs last year, despite being 16th in number of drives.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:30 am 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is this? Who would you least like to face in their prime if they got traded to another team within the division? The answer is without a doubt- Brown. Say what you want about some weird playoff standard that got Holmes in this conversation (TOTALLY
RIDICULOUS). Or dramatic catches by Stallworth and Swann, but Brown will be the second best WR to play the game when it is over- if only because TD numbers will keep him from being number one.

I love Swann and Stalworth, I have a high regard for Ward, Thigpen, and Lipps. But if Brown gets traded to the Browns, Ravens, or Bengals no one would ever think in a million years that any of those teams gave us a proper return on investment or that it would be a good thing from a competition standpoint. Every one of those WRs could be canceled out with a proper defensive scheme- outside of some rough manhandling by Sherman (most of which should have been called) no one has figured out how to completely stop Antonio Brown.

He did everything in his power in that Jags game 7 for 132 and 2 TDs in a playoff game against the best defense in the league. Happy Birthday to the dude.


Quote:
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is this? Who would you least like to face in their prime if they got traded to another team within the division?


Depends on who's throwing him the football.

It might be AB, but...

If 2015 Mike Vick were throwing him the football... I would not lose any sleep over facing AB. At all.

Who in our secondary for the past several years was going to cover the 6'2" Stallworth? A 6'2" RZ target?

In 1984 Stallworth had Mark Malone and David Woodley throwing him the football. We were 8th in offense ppg. That was Lipps rookie season.

Stallworth's numbers that year...

89 REC 1395 YDS 17.4 Y/R 11 TD

Quote:
Brown will be the second best WR to play the game when it is over- if only because TD numbers will keep him from being number one.


That's like saying Emmitt Smith is the greatest RB of all time. There were RB's more talented than Emmitt.

Jerry Rice would not be the guy many think him to be if he did not have Montana/Young throwing him the football nearly his entire career.

I do not believe AB is the 2nd most talented wr to ever play the game. Love AB, love all our great wrs... but I've seen a few who IMO are or were more talented.

I would take Larry Fitzgerald over any of our guys. Might even take him over Rice. Think about what Fitzgerald could have done if he had Montana/Young/Ben throwing him the football his entire career. Outside of a brief stint with Warner, he has never had a HOF level qb feeding him.

AB is Stephan Curry minus the rings. Curry is playing at the right time in nba league history. Put him in the 80's or 90's and he's not going the be the same guy. The physicality of the league those years would not allow the dancing around freely at the 3 point line and when driving to the basket he would have gotten hammered in the no blood no foul league. Similarly, the middle of the field is wide open in nfl league history at the right time for AB's skillet.

The 6'3" Jordy Nelson physical specimen and talented RZ target had 3 seasons of 15 TDs, 14 TDs, 13 TDs


Last edited by Havoc on Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:17 am 
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Great post Havoc.

Larry Fitzgerald with a HOF QB his entire career would of shattered many many records. The QB tossing the rock makes all the difference. Spot on with your Emmit comment. Fuck that guy. For me, Barry Sanders was way more talented. Larry chose the money so that’s on him for staying in the desert. He’ll be another great one without a ring.


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:35 am 
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Havoc wrote:
StillerInCT wrote:
Brown is just as good, if not better than Swann, Stall, Holmes, and Ward.


I do not have a problem with this statement, just to be clear.

I got involved in this when someone stated AB's talent blows away the talent of Swann and Stallworth. That, I have a problem with.

Having said all that, AB has a lot more ps work to do, in my view.

Something is missing from this offense in the Ben/AB/Bell era (Haley or no Haley). We do not score enough TD's. Maybe it's largely due to we have never consistently had that 4th impact guy. Hoping it all changes this year with JuJu's 2nd season (and McDonald).


I hear you, Havoc. I'd say AB hasn't been given enough chances in the PS, but when he has he's pretty much delivered.

I think the TD problem is sphincter pucker when we get into the RZ. But I agree, I think JuJu and McDonald can change that. Assuming McDonald can string together multiple healthy games.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:24 pm 
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IMHO, Brown's weakness is that he can't physically overcome double teams. He really needs that other threat to help. Julio Jones or Nuc Hopkins can overcome doubles by being able to out jump them.

I still think Brown is the best WR in the NFL but that is his weakness.

I want the Steelers to run more rub routes. That is what helped Rice put up impossible numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:40 pm 
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SteelThrillsseeker wrote:
Great post Havoc.

Larry Fitzgerald with a HOF QB his entire career would of shattered many many records. The QB tossing the rock makes all the difference. Spot on with your Emmit comment. Fuck that guy. For me, Barry Sanders was way more talented. Larry chose the money so that’s on him for staying in the desert. He’ll be another great one without a ring.


Thanks brother.

I watched a lot of the Cardinals 2008 ps. Saw what they were doing. I was nervous heading into SB43. Believed they had a legit tangible chance to beat us.

The 2008 Cards had some rs issues. That was the year Boldin got his face broke. It all came together for them at the right time though.

Put the right players around Warner and when he was on, it was like watching a video game. He was on that ps.

Fitz numbers that ps...

6 REC 101 YDS 1 TD LNG 42
8 REC 166 YDS 1 TD LNG 41
9 REC 152 YDS 3 TD LNG 62
7 REC 127 YDS 2 TD LNG 64


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:

I'll ask it again. Has AB not performed in the playoffs? Has he not made huge plays when needed? Has he not been a dominate player in just about every playoff game he's played?

So how is he not in that group? What, because he hasn't played in a Super Bowl, we're going to pretend everything else he's done doesn't matter?

Get the hell out of here with that load of crap.

You may not be a yinzer, but you're certainly subscribing to yinzer logic.


And you're subscribing to nonsense as usual.

I can tell you love putting words in people's mouths don't you. Who fucking said what he's done doesn't matter? My original post began with "I love AB." I'm not trying to denigrate Brown, but yes. I need to see him get to a Super Bowl like Rice, like Stallworth, like Swann and dominate before I consider him greatest of all time. I'm all broken up you don't like my criteria.

And just what the fuck is "yinzer logic?" Something you made up? Maybe you should pay Nick79 and his imaginary friend, the Typical Yinzer, a visit.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:38 am 
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Agree with Obviously, Havoc, Scunge, Stosh on the WR comp.

And back Obviously completely with his reply to this bullshit about "yinzer logic."


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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Every year I see AB doing things on a football field that defy logic. Catches, footwork, balance, in traffic, etc. Things that I don't see and haven't seen on tape from other receivers, past or present.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:31 pm 
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R S wrote:
Every year I see AB doing things on a football field that defy logic. Catches, footwork, balance, in traffic, etc. Things that I don't see and haven't seen on tape from other receivers, past or present.


He kind of has to, because he doesn't have the same physicality or get as much separation as other receivers. Although his ball-hawking skills are grossly underrated - he makes catches that should be impossible for his size and leaping ability.

He has a ton of receptions into impossible windows that only Ben can throw and only AB can catch. IMO, Ben has one of the best arms ever. AB is great, HOF no doubt....but I don't think we're having this conversation if any other than a handful of QB's is throwing AB the ball.

Of course, Jerry Rice wasn't the most physically gifted receiver, either (that honor probably goes to Randy Moss).

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:44 pm 
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I agree Kodiak. A WR can't be great in a vacuum. You need to have someone good throwing you the ball. Jerry Rice wouldn't have been Jerry Rice if Mike Tomczak was throwing him the ball his entire career. And those poo pooing that Larry Fitz didn't have good QBs, He had Kurt Warner (HOF) and Carson Palmer for the vast majority of his career. Far from scrubs. There were 2-3 season where he had some journeyman.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:36 pm 
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R S wrote:
I agree Kodiak. A WR can't be great in a vacuum. You need to have someone good throwing you the ball.


Obviously this is entirely subjective.....but if, say, Matt Stafford or Matt Ryan was throwing AB the ball, the numbers don't nosedive but I could see 200-250 yards and 2 TD's less. Give him Joe Flacco or Eli, and the numbers are even lower and probably not in a top-5 currently conversation.

You're right about Jerry Rice - Montana to Young to Hostetler/Gannon(?). Or look at Randy Moss - he pouted and mailed it in at OAK when he had shit throwing him the ball, but also put up big numbers with less than great QB's in MIN. Megatron on a better team with better QB's could have easily threatened Rice's numbers, if he could have played long enough.

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 Post subject: Re: AB vs. Jerry Rice at 30
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Depends on who's throwing him the football.

It might be AB, but...

If 2015 Mike Vick were throwing him the football... I would not lose any sleep over facing AB. At all.

Who in our secondary for the past several years was going to cover the 6'2" Stallworth? A 6'2" RZ target?

In 1984 Stallworth had Mark Malone and David Woodley throwing him the football. We were 8th in offense ppg. That was Lipps rookie season.

Stallworth's numbers that year...

89 REC 1395 YDS 17.4 Y/R 11 TD

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Come on Havoc, Mike Vick at the end of his career less than one year in an offense he'd never played before is how we say that Brown is nothing without Ben? Brown has bailed out Ben on many a less than 50/50 ball so many times that Ben just throws it into a spot now. He is a generational WR who can play any receiver position despite being undersized or having top end acceleration.


Havoc wrote:
That's like saying Emmitt Smith is the greatest RB of all time. There were RB's more talented than Emmitt.

Jerry Rice would not be the guy many think him to be if he did not have Montana/Young throwing him the football nearly his entire career.

I do not believe AB is the 2nd most talented wr to ever play the game. Love AB, love all our great wrs... but I've seen a few who IMO are or were more talented.


No one is talking talent here we are talking BEST. The most talented WR of all time is Randy Moss- I don't think that is up for debate. Brown is the best because he consistently does things that we only see once or twice from the other ones.

Havoc wrote:
AB is Stephan Curry minus the rings. Curry is playing at the right time in nba league history. Put him in the 80's or 90's and he's not going the be the same guy. The physicality of the league those years would not allow the dancing around freely at the 3 point line and when driving to the basket he would have gotten hammered in the no blood no foul league. Similarly, the middle of the field is wide open in nfl league history at the right time for AB's skillet.


There has never been a physical defense for a guy shooting and making consistently 27 feet from the basket. Larry Bird, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen all made their living out there and anything over 40% would suddenly make the team job of getting baskets elsewhere easier. Curry takes a 35 footer and makes them like he's shooting layups and in any generation that is great. Drazen Petrovic is the last time the old timers saw shot making on Curry's level. And Petrovic has the unfortunate fate of being a Net in a time where you couldn't leave for a better team- before he passed. RIP.

Brown's work is not only in that zone, its mainly near or outside the hash- he'll take a drag with the CB in a trail technique but he's not paying bills in there. And those LBs are busy trying to prevent a 30 yard completion to a TE not intidating a 7 yard drag. Game has changed not the rules per se.

Havoc wrote:
The 6'3" Jordy Nelson physical specimen and talented RZ target had 3 seasons of 15 TDs, 14 TDs, 13 TDs


And their offense gets a lot of single and zone coverage in the RZ because you can man or double down there because you have to allow for Rodgers running ability. Green Bays RZ offense is prolific because Rodgers constantly puts the pressure on defenses to decide between giving a passing crease or letting him run the ball into the end zone. Our offense doesn't do that anymore because... well you know.

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