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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Arians liked an aggressive passing attack whereas Haley, under Tomlin’s orders, liked a "safe" one.

Fixed that for ya...

Unfortunately, I think those believing the offense is going to be different under Fichner are going to be greatly disappointed.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:36 pm 
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I'm not gonna debate those stats stosh. Those are very damning towards Arians. I don't have to remind folks the OLine in those days was..., shall we say a work in progress. Once Smith left and Starks couldn't stay healthy they had a turnstile at center and RT until Colon took over at RT and was mediocre at best. I still say Colon was a better RG candidate. Instead the interior OLine was a shit show for what seemed years until Pouncey was drafted. Haley had the opportunity to play Ben behind some great talented OLinemen Arians..., not so much. I think the sacks on Arians watch was due in large part because the OLine was an embarrassment. Arians was OC from 07 to 11. WR coach 04 to 06.


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
<nitpick>5-2 and 3-4. Just sayin'</nitpick>


Thanks Jeemie, I did make a mistake on Haley, turns out he was only 3-4 in the playoffs, so that is an improvement, however slight, in viewing my notes I added the Denver loss to Tebow under Haley's column too, but that was on Arians watch. When I was figuring out Haley's point per game I did get that right. Sorry, for those following along at home.

Ben with Arians (post-season) 5-3, 27.1 points per game

L 29-31 Jax
W 35-24 SD
W 23-14 Balt
W 27-23 Ariz
W 31-24 Balt
W 24-19 Jets
L 25-31 GB
L 23-29 Den

Ben with Haley (Post-Season) 3-4, 22.6 points per game offense, and how I have pointed out in other threads, 5 games with 18 points or less. Ben under Arians never failed to score at least 23 points a game.

L 17-30 Balt
W 18-16 Cinc
L 16-23 Den
W 30-12 Mia
W 18-16 Kan
L 17-36 NE
L 42-45 Jax


Those numbers aren't accurate and are misleading.

SD '09 featured a 67 yard punt return for a TD. Offense scored 28.
BAL '09 featured a 40 yard INT TD return from Troy. Offense scored 16 points.
ARI '09 featured the greatest play in SB history with Harrison's TD. Offense scored 20 points.

BAL '11 the offense only had 263 total yards. Were aided by the defense getting back to back to back turnovers in the third quarter, all in Baltimore territory. Steelers had three scoring drives in the third quarter of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points. Arians da God tho.

NYJ '11 featured a William Gay '19 yard fumble return. Offense scored 17 points.

....

So this whole "Arians offense never scored less than 23 points in a playoff game" is complete b.s. Three different times they scored 20 or less. Instead of 27.1 PPG, the actual offense only averaged 23.6 PPG. 1 whole point more than Haley. Haley didn't have AB for Denver, didn't Bell for essentially four of those playoff games, starting guys like Ben Tate and Frenchy, Ben with a concussion against Baltimore and a hurt shoulder against Cincy... I know, fuck Haley.

The Steelers with Arians won ONE playoff game where the D or STs didn't score a TD. That was the 2011 Baltimore playoff game where the D created three turnovers all on Baltimore's side of the field, handing the offense points on a silver platter.

So, in other words, Arians f'n sucked just as hard as Haley ever did. This team was better off the day he was fired.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Much to debate
What I can agree to is Jobus' comment above
Hard to hit the QB when passes are really runs and very short


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
Quote:
Arians liked an aggressive passing attack whereas Haley, under Tomlin’s orders, liked a "safe" one.

Fixed that for ya...

Unfortunately, I think those believing the offense is going to be different under Fichner are going to be greatly disappointed.

Tomlin's orders or someone higher up? Tomlin is the one who said Arians would be back before somehow he mysteriously had a non-retirement.

At any rate, I think OC's have had a lot of latitude under Tomlin, and I am hopeful things will be better with Fich.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
I do not think the debate is whether Ben was hurt more under Arians or under Haley,
The debate is whether or not he was HIT more.

In the 5 year under Arians, Ben was sacked 215 times in 73 games.
In the 6 years under Haley, Ben was sacked 163 times in 86 games.

In 13 more games, he was sacked 52 more times!

Playoffs:
Ben played in 8 playoff games under Arians and was sacked 28 times.
Ben played in 8 playoff games under Haley and was sacked 13 times.

Ben certainly took many more hits under Arians.

As far as missing games, a younger Ben is certainly more likely to absorb blows, pick himself up off the ground and recover and rebound for the following Sunday than the older Ben under Haley.

This is not a debate about who was more effective as an OC and what teams were more productive, as both OC's had their warts and I was glad to see both go. LOL.

Lets hope Ben and Fitcher can put it all together in 2018 and for a few more years.
More importantly, lets hope Tomlin stays away from the offensive meeting rooms and limits his input in the weekly game planning and in game momentum killing decisions and philosophies that have derailed games and seasons - if not a decade.

There are a LOT more hits to be counted that aren't sacks. Ben got SACKED much more under Arians (and behind an atrocious set of OLs). Ben got hit more under first couple of years of Haley than in the last couple of years of Arians.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Stosh, we can debate this over and over. Getting sacked does not necessarily mean getting hurt.

And the sack numbers don't correlate to anything really when you factor in that Arians primarily had garbage for offensive linemen. I mentioned the Darnold Stapleton's, the Chris Kemoeatu's, the Justin Hartwigs, who can forget a player like Jonathan Scott playing LT? Who? Yeah, exactly.

So, reciting lower sack numbers does not mean much to me as Haley enjoyed the benefits of high draft picks being spent along the offensive line and being given probably the greatest offensive line coach in the NFL in Mike Munchak. The lower sack numbers, Ben not being sacked as much has little to do with Haley and more to having long time starters along the offensive line being coached by one of the best to play the game and coach the game in Munchak.

When I think of Ben getting hurt, it really didn't come by way of a sack, but after he threw the ball away and the defensive players were allowed to just follow through and smack/hit Ben anyway. I have seen him sprain his ankle because his own offensive linemen stepped on his foot. He has had a lot of foot and ankle issues over the years. I have seen Ben dislocate a finger on his throwing hand by hitting a player in the helmet with his follow through. Who can forget Ben being down on the turf and Burfect shoving a knee into his shoulder? Or how about Mark Baron supposedly being out of control, falling down and deciding to sweep Ben below the knee anyway? Or Richard Seymour just punching Ben in the face after the play is over? Or Pouncey having a brain fart and choosing to help Ramon Foster when it was Trai Essex who was overmatched against Haloti Ngata, who then proceeded to break Ben's nose?

I see Ben being hit just as much with Haley, even if the sacks paint another story. Again, an all-star Pro Bowl laden offense line that have years of experience playing together and Ben still got injured and missed 9 starts in 6 years? Ben with Arians did not have that luxury and still only missed 2 games.

You forgot Kemoeatu blocking no one and allowing Mario Williams to come completely free, sacking and separating Ben's throwing shoulder and making for a struggle in the pass game for most of 2008.

What is it they say about you only being as strong as your weakest link?

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Awful memories
Remembering how shitty the stapler was
How dumb kemo was
And the carousel of shit at C


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:10 pm 
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I don’t think I’ve hated a Steelers player more than Kemoeatu...
My gawd he he was awful!

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:22 pm 
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2008. Offensive line

Max Starks
Kris Keomatu
Jeff Hartwig - replaced Sean Mahan from year before !!!
Darnell Stapleton
William colon

Yikes


stapler, Mahan, hartwig and colon are some of my least favorite steelers ever


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:
2008. Offensive line

Max Starks
Kris Keomatu
Jeff Hartwig - replaced Sean Mahan from year before !!!
Darnell Stapleton
William colon

Yikes

Colon was the second best starter of that group...double yikes!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:36 am 
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Great stuff on Uncle Bruce...



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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:26 am 
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Ben was saddled with complete shit for pass pro the entire first half of his career. Mediocre OC's his entire career.

What could have been....In 30+ years the only QB I've seen with more talent and ability is Aaron Rodgers. Fuck Tom Brady - if he doesn't play for NE I guarantee he isn't in this conversation. But Peyton is an interesting discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:28 am 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
I don’t think I’ve hated a Steelers player more than Kemoeatu...
My gawd he he was awful!



Jamain Stephens.


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:26 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Ben was saddled with complete shit for pass pro the entire first half of his career. Mediocre OC's his entire career.

What could have been....In 30+ years the only QB I've seen with more talent and ability is Aaron Rodgers. Fuck Tom Brady - if he doesn't play for NE I guarantee he isn't in this conversation. But Peyton is an interesting discussion.


Dan Marino remains criminally underrated. I might be inclined to add an Elway or a Steve Young in there, as well. Machine Gun Kelly could definitely sling it, as well. Brett Favre in his prime also did not suck, but I take your point.


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:28 am 
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AirRescueFF wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
I don’t think I’ve hated a Steelers player more than Kemoeatu...
My gawd he he was awful!



Jamain Stephens.


At least we can't blame Fat Jamain for any of Ben's sacks/hits/injuries.


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
I don’t think I’ve hated a Steelers player more than Kemoeatu...
My gawd he he was awful!


"Who's got a separated shoulder now, O-line?"

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
Ben was saddled with complete shit for pass pro the entire first half of his career. Mediocre OC's his entire career.

What could have been....In 30+ years the only QB I've seen with more talent and ability is Aaron Rodgers. Fuck Tom Brady - if he doesn't play for NE I guarantee he isn't in this conversation. But Peyton is an interesting discussion.


Dan Marino remains criminally underrated. I might be inclined to add an Elway or a Steve Young in there, as well. Machine Gun Kelly could definitely sling it, as well. Brett Favre in his prime also did not suck, but I take your point.

Marino only really had 4-5 great years– he was solid in most years but he never quite reached the heights of year 2.. His year 2 is either the greatest or second greatest regular season a QB has ever had in the history of the league... but he had some really mediocre years in between year 2 and his later-career resurgence.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:55 am 
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TB, yeah, I guess some may say that is misleading, I don't. Arians offense was better than Haley's in the post-season.

8 games with Arians they still, discounting the 4 TD returns, scored 22 TDs and only 12 FGs.

7 games with Haley and those numbers were 15 TDs and 18 FGs, before that offensive explosion against Jax, those numbers were 9 TDs and 18 FGs in 6 games.

The Jets game, yeah, we had a TD return by the defense to make it 24-0, but the real point is that we were already up 17-0, we got out to a big lead which is what you want your offense to do and it made the other team press, forced to try and play catch up. Never mind that the great Dick LeBeau defense would surrender 19 points in pretty much the last 15 minutes of the game to make it close.

Arians offenses were able to get out to those leads, 10-0 against Arizona in the Super Bowl, 17-0 against the JETS, the SD game was even at 7-7 but then the offense got that big lead scored 3 TDs in short order and we were up 28-10, against Baltimore we got up 13-0. Contrast that with Haley's offenses. Wow, there we were up 3-0 against Baltimore! And against Cincy we were up 3-0, then it was up 6-0, then 9-0, impressive!!! Against Denver our biggest lead was when we went up on them by 4 points 10-6 and then later 13-9, we would lose 23-16. Miami, now that was a game in which Haley's offense played like Arians units, we quickly got up on them by 14 points, 14-0, and not by coincidence we won the game 30-12. KC the FG game, less said about that the better. NE game? No lead. Jax game? No lead.

Sorry, but I still contend that Arians offenses were better in the post season. We were even more balanced and were able to run for TDs, having 12 rushing TDs compared to Haley's offenses only accounting for 5 rushing TDs.

I am glad that Haley is gone and hopefully Fitchner can be the OC to truly make this offense play to its potential. One thing that we have to get back to however, is that our offense has to strike first, build leads and help the defense out, put the defense in better position to play loose, play fast and play aggressive, that is how turnovers and big plays happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:38 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Marino only really had 4-5 great years– he was solid in most years but he never quite reached the heights of year 2.. His year 2 is either the greatest or second greatest regular season a QB has ever had in the history of the league... but he had some really mediocre years in between year 2 and his later-career resurgence.


I really don't know what to make of Marino anymore. I am old enough to remember watching his games, I even lived in Florida at the time. I also remember Dan Fouts and that is what makes me pause when people talk of how great or underrated Marino was, how he did things nobody else did.

I remember watching Dan Fouts and those San Diego teams in the early 80s. Fouts had 4715 yards passing in 1980 and 4802 yards in 1981. So, Marino has 5048 yards passing in 1984, but Dan Fouts may have had a chance to be right there with Marino but he missed 3 games. Fouts and his backup Ed Luther combined for 4,903 yards passing that year. Neil Lomax that year in 1984 passed for 4,614 yards. The point that I am trying to make here, is that simply the 5,000 yards passing is not really that impressive to me, the game was trending in that direction, someone was going to pass that threshold in short order. Marino was the first, so yeah, kudos to him.

The 48 TDs was really impressive, but that is the one thing that really was like an anomaly. Those 3 seasons of 84, 85, 86 he was on another level and then the remainder of his career it was sort of like meh, for me.

One of the things that I always felt was keeping him back, holding him back was that they stuck so long with Duper and Clayton and those two just did not age well and were not consistent enough. Clayton, yeah everybody remembers the 18 TDs in 84, but then to follow that up with just 4 touchdowns the very next year? Later he would have 3 TD seasons. Duper was in the same category, only worse, he actually had seasons where he had as little as 1 TD for a season, doing that twice in 88 and 89. How do you have Dan Marino as your QB and you end up with 1 TD for the year? And then they would bring on old vets like an Irving Fryar or a Mark Ingram, Fred Barnett, Brett Permian, that were all well past their primes, etc. He never really got the supporting cast that he deserved, not just on defense, and not just a RB, but the WRs, TEs, etc. Very strange.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:43 am 
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Scunge wrote:
9 TDs and 18 FGs in 6 games.


This is telling. Haley was ps garbage.


Scunge wrote:
One thing that we have to get back to however, is that our offense has to strike first, build leads and help the defense out, put the defense in better position to play loose, play fast and play aggressive, that is how turnovers and big plays happen.


Mike Tomlin has a chance to go down in Steelers lore as a great HC if he plays this right. He has a chance to go down in history as a HC who played it smart early in his career riding the machine already in place and built to win via "style points don't matter" but who adjusted when his team was built for (potentially) high powered offense plus a defense that (hopefully) does "enough".

If Tomlin does not adjust to the roster as (potentially) currently constructed, I would likely view him forever as among the dumb coaches I have seen in sports. I am hoping hoping hoping that will not be the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:28 pm 
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marino should have been a steeler except for team stupidy..
I don't think marino was underrated..he got lots of praise. I think he just underachieved in playoffs.. I think what made marino so amazing was he was the ulitimate-perfect qb model at time and his arm and amazingly fast release were god like.. he was a fav off mine since pitt days and I was sick for decades steelers did not draft him..i recall vividly the draft and how shocked I was dan was still on board for steelers. please pic marino please... I was sick.
.then our pic is mangled in wreck..salt in wound..
I loved and still love watching danny marino whip the ball around like magic. dude was unsackable cause he could wait till the pressure close and wing it 45 yards on a rope on target in blink of an eye..
iff steelers and noll had marino instead of fucking Malone and other bums no doubt another trophy or 2 would be in the case..
sorry for the topic straying but someone mentioned marino..loved the guy!!


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