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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Arians liked an aggressive passing attack whereas Haley, under Tomlin’s orders, liked a "safe" one.

Fixed that for ya...

Unfortunately, I think those believing the offense is going to be different under Fichner are going to be greatly disappointed.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:36 pm 
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I'm not gonna debate those stats stosh. Those are very damning towards Arians. I don't have to remind folks the OLine in those days was..., shall we say a work in progress. Once Smith left and Starks couldn't stay healthy they had a turnstile at center and RT until Colon took over at RT and was mediocre at best. I still say Colon was a better RG candidate. Instead the interior OLine was a shit show for what seemed years until Pouncey was drafted. Haley had the opportunity to play Ben behind some great talented OLinemen Arians..., not so much. I think the sacks on Arians watch was due in large part because the OLine was an embarrassment. Arians was OC from 07 to 11. WR coach 04 to 06.


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
<nitpick>5-2 and 3-4. Just sayin'</nitpick>


Thanks Jeemie, I did make a mistake on Haley, turns out he was only 3-4 in the playoffs, so that is an improvement, however slight, in viewing my notes I added the Denver loss to Tebow under Haley's column too, but that was on Arians watch. When I was figuring out Haley's point per game I did get that right. Sorry, for those following along at home.

Ben with Arians (post-season) 5-3, 27.1 points per game

L 29-31 Jax
W 35-24 SD
W 23-14 Balt
W 27-23 Ariz
W 31-24 Balt
W 24-19 Jets
L 25-31 GB
L 23-29 Den

Ben with Haley (Post-Season) 3-4, 22.6 points per game offense, and how I have pointed out in other threads, 5 games with 18 points or less. Ben under Arians never failed to score at least 23 points a game.

L 17-30 Balt
W 18-16 Cinc
L 16-23 Den
W 30-12 Mia
W 18-16 Kan
L 17-36 NE
L 42-45 Jax


Those numbers aren't accurate and are misleading.

SD '09 featured a 67 yard punt return for a TD. Offense scored 28.
BAL '09 featured a 40 yard INT TD return from Troy. Offense scored 16 points.
ARI '09 featured the greatest play in SB history with Harrison's TD. Offense scored 20 points.

BAL '11 the offense only had 263 total yards. Were aided by the defense getting back to back to back turnovers in the third quarter, all in Baltimore territory. Steelers had three scoring drives in the third quarter of 23, 25, and 6 yards for 17 points. Arians da God tho.

NYJ '11 featured a William Gay '19 yard fumble return. Offense scored 17 points.

....

So this whole "Arians offense never scored less than 23 points in a playoff game" is complete b.s. Three different times they scored 20 or less. Instead of 27.1 PPG, the actual offense only averaged 23.6 PPG. 1 whole point more than Haley. Haley didn't have AB for Denver, didn't Bell for essentially four of those playoff games, starting guys like Ben Tate and Frenchy, Ben with a concussion against Baltimore and a hurt shoulder against Cincy... I know, fuck Haley.

The Steelers with Arians won ONE playoff game where the D or STs didn't score a TD. That was the 2011 Baltimore playoff game where the D created three turnovers all on Baltimore's side of the field, handing the offense points on a silver platter.

So, in other words, Arians f'n sucked just as hard as Haley ever did. This team was better off the day he was fired.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Much to debate
What I can agree to is Jobus' comment above
Hard to hit the QB when passes are really runs and very short


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
Quote:
Arians liked an aggressive passing attack whereas Haley, under Tomlin’s orders, liked a "safe" one.

Fixed that for ya...

Unfortunately, I think those believing the offense is going to be different under Fichner are going to be greatly disappointed.

Tomlin's orders or someone higher up? Tomlin is the one who said Arians would be back before somehow he mysteriously had a non-retirement.

At any rate, I think OC's have had a lot of latitude under Tomlin, and I am hopeful things will be better with Fich.


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
I do not think the debate is whether Ben was hurt more under Arians or under Haley,
The debate is whether or not he was HIT more.

In the 5 year under Arians, Ben was sacked 215 times in 73 games.
In the 6 years under Haley, Ben was sacked 163 times in 86 games.

In 13 more games, he was sacked 52 more times!

Playoffs:
Ben played in 8 playoff games under Arians and was sacked 28 times.
Ben played in 8 playoff games under Haley and was sacked 13 times.

Ben certainly took many more hits under Arians.

As far as missing games, a younger Ben is certainly more likely to absorb blows, pick himself up off the ground and recover and rebound for the following Sunday than the older Ben under Haley.

This is not a debate about who was more effective as an OC and what teams were more productive, as both OC's had their warts and I was glad to see both go. LOL.

Lets hope Ben and Fitcher can put it all together in 2018 and for a few more years.
More importantly, lets hope Tomlin stays away from the offensive meeting rooms and limits his input in the weekly game planning and in game momentum killing decisions and philosophies that have derailed games and seasons - if not a decade.

There are a LOT more hits to be counted that aren't sacks. Ben got SACKED much more under Arians (and behind an atrocious set of OLs). Ben got hit more under first couple of years of Haley than in the last couple of years of Arians.

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Stosh, we can debate this over and over. Getting sacked does not necessarily mean getting hurt.

And the sack numbers don't correlate to anything really when you factor in that Arians primarily had garbage for offensive linemen. I mentioned the Darnold Stapleton's, the Chris Kemoeatu's, the Justin Hartwigs, who can forget a player like Jonathan Scott playing LT? Who? Yeah, exactly.

So, reciting lower sack numbers does not mean much to me as Haley enjoyed the benefits of high draft picks being spent along the offensive line and being given probably the greatest offensive line coach in the NFL in Mike Munchak. The lower sack numbers, Ben not being sacked as much has little to do with Haley and more to having long time starters along the offensive line being coached by one of the best to play the game and coach the game in Munchak.

When I think of Ben getting hurt, it really didn't come by way of a sack, but after he threw the ball away and the defensive players were allowed to just follow through and smack/hit Ben anyway. I have seen him sprain his ankle because his own offensive linemen stepped on his foot. He has had a lot of foot and ankle issues over the years. I have seen Ben dislocate a finger on his throwing hand by hitting a player in the helmet with his follow through. Who can forget Ben being down on the turf and Burfect shoving a knee into his shoulder? Or how about Mark Baron supposedly being out of control, falling down and deciding to sweep Ben below the knee anyway? Or Richard Seymour just punching Ben in the face after the play is over? Or Pouncey having a brain fart and choosing to help Ramon Foster when it was Trai Essex who was overmatched against Haloti Ngata, who then proceeded to break Ben's nose?

I see Ben being hit just as much with Haley, even if the sacks paint another story. Again, an all-star Pro Bowl laden offense line that have years of experience playing together and Ben still got injured and missed 9 starts in 6 years? Ben with Arians did not have that luxury and still only missed 2 games.

You forgot Kemoeatu blocking no one and allowing Mario Williams to come completely free, sacking and separating Ben's throwing shoulder and making for a struggle in the pass game for most of 2008.

What is it they say about you only being as strong as your weakest link?

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Awful memories
Remembering how shitty the stapler was
How dumb kemo was
And the carousel of shit at C


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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:10 pm 
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I don’t think I’ve hated a Steelers player more than Kemoeatu...
My gawd he he was awful!

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 Post subject: Re: Arians On Ben
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:22 pm 
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2008. Offensive line

Max Starks
Kris Keomatu
Jeff Hartwig - replaced Sean Mahan from year before !!!
Darnell Stapleton
William colon

Yikes


stapler, Mahan, hartwig and colon are some of my least favorite steelers ever


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