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 Post subject: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Butler is switching to a 4/3 base defense to stop the run. Then running sub defenses off of it.

Mike Prisuta expanded on the subject in this article for Steelers.com: https://www.steelers.com/news/defense-exploring-options :

The 4-3 look in the base alignment Dupree detailed following OTA No. 1 is an apparent response to the run-defense issues the Steelers experienced after losing inside linebacker Ryan Shazier last December in Cincinnati. “This is going to be my first year of rotating back and forth,” Dupree continued. “We know it’s going to be a run sometimes. And on short-yardage situations, on check-down plays, we’ll be able to rally around the ball real fast. We don’t usually try to do it in a lot of pass-rush situations. We just try to do it to be able to stop the run.”


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Interesting. It can only help for the defense to be versatile.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Getting pressure with four is the only way to beat Brady.

It's about fucking time we tried doing this some. The league has only known this for 10+ years.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:47 pm 
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tunch wrote:
Getting pressure with four is the only way to beat Brady.

It's about fucking time we tried doing this some. The league has only known this for 10+ years.


Any insight on how to beat Jacksonville?

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:50 pm 
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BarryFoster wrote:
tunch wrote:
Getting pressure with four is the only way to beat Brady.

It's about fucking time we tried doing this some. The league has only known this for 10+ years.


Any insight on how to beat Jacksonville?


That was all Ben's fault. Defense was fine in that game. It is known.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:58 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Ice wrote:
That was all Ben's fault. Defense was fine in that game. It is known.


Can't wait until Ben retires and the shackles come off Tomlin and Butler.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Ice wrote:
BarryFoster wrote:
tunch wrote:
Getting pressure with four is the only way to beat Brady.

It's about fucking time we tried doing this some. The league has only known this for 10+ years.


Any insight on how to beat Jacksonville?


That was all Ben's fault. Defense was fine in that game. It is known.

Who said that?


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:30 am 
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Oddly enough, there's a few strong pages of it in the thread on Bell skipping OTAs, Gyst.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:46 am 
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Ice wrote:
BarryFoster wrote:
tunch wrote:
Getting pressure with four is the only way to beat Brady.

It's about fucking time we tried doing this some. The league has only known this for 10+ years.


Any insight on how to beat Jacksonville?


That was all Ben's fault. Defense was fine in that game. It is known.

We lost 45-42! Defense was fine?


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:53 am 
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I honestly figured the sarcafont was unnecessary since I included the Game of Thrones reference, Nick. That is not, actually, my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:53 pm 
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Nick79 wrote:
We lost 45-42! Defense was fine?


Ben basically handed Jax 14 points, so if Ben hadn't done that then the game should have ended up with us winning 42-31, right??

The loss to Green Bay in the Super Bowl. The score was 31-25. The defense only gave up 24 points to Aaron Rodgers, so why did we lose the game? How come we did not win 25-24?

The Cincy game, where was the offense? How come Ryan Shazier had to pull a miracle turnover out of his ass, and the offense needed two bizarre back to back call on the Cincy defense to kick a field goal to win the game?

This team is 3-6 in the last 9 playoff games, is failing to score points, 5 of those 9 games the offense has scored 18 points or less, 18, 18, 17,17 and 16 points. And to add further insult to injury they turn the ball over and give up cheap TDs putting their defense in a bind.

The offense, Ben, Brown and Bell are disappointing and under achieving. Supposedly they are all HOFers, the best triplets in the NFL, yet they have done shit these past 9 playoff games. And there are many apologists on this board that want to blame the defense and make up every possible excuse for the Killer B's.

Sorry, I won't do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Now, in terms of the switch to a 4-3, well, I will believe it when I see it. Many of you know that I have been calling for us to switch to it for years now.

To me it only makes sense that if you are running more sub package defenses then on early downs you should run a 4-3, more big bodies up front, harder to run against. And the players that you typically draft for a 3-4 aren't really as versatile as those you draft for a 4-3. We would typically pass over many prospects for a 4-3 because they don't fit our 3-4, yet they are the exact same prospects that would thrive when you go to sub package defenses. That OLB that is only 225 pounds, the Steelers may deem him a poor fit as a 3-4 OLB, yet that player can be a 'Will' OLB in a 4-3 and also be a sub package linebacker. Other teams find uses for all of these players that are poor fits for our 3-4. So, that begs the question, if your strict adherence to the 3-4 is causing you to miss out on all of these players, then why continue to use it as your base? Why continue to let it determine what players you draft?

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:42 am 
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I just can't sit back and blame it all on the offense. The defenses being put in tight spots is an undeniable fact. Happens to all teams. However their poor play is not excusable IMHO. So Ben and the O gave up 14. What about the other 31 points? Is it acceptable to allow 31 points as a defense? Especially in a postseason game where giving up points like that is devastating. Forcing your offense to have to score at least 32 points. The defense as a whole is W.I.P. (work in progress) so we'll see what the coaching changes do for the defense. As well as the 'new' talent. I'm really not that alarmed when I see the offense take the field. Lately, and this is almost Taboo coming from a Steelers fan because this team is known through history as having killer defenses, I am alarmed when I see the defense take the field. All my friends who are fans of other teams ask me all the time; what happened to the killer Steeler defense? Hmmm....I don't know I have to say.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:11 am 
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Scunge wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
We lost 45-42! Defense was fine?


Ben basically handed Jax 14 points, so if Ben hadn't done that then the game should have ended up with us winning 42-31, right??

The loss to Green Bay in the Super Bowl. The score was 31-25. The defense only gave up 24 points to Aaron Rodgers, so why did we lose the game? How come we did not win 25-24?

The Cincy game, where was the offense? How come Ryan Shazier had to pull a miracle turnover out of his ass, and the offense needed two bizarre back to back call on the Cincy defense to kick a field goal to win the game?

This team is 3-6 in the last 9 playoff games, is failing to score points, 5 of those 9 games the offense has scored 18 points or less, 18, 18, 17,17 and 16 points. And to add further insult to injury they turn the ball over and give up cheap TDs putting their defense in a bind.

The offense, Ben, Brown and Bell are disappointing and under achieving. Supposedly they are all HOFers, the best triplets in the NFL, yet they have done shit these past 9 playoff games. And there are many apologists on this board that want to blame the defense and make up every possible excuse for the Killer B's.

Sorry, I won't do that.


You keep banging this drum about the Jax loss and it's going to run the risk of making all the other outstanding stuff you post start retroactively to be suspicious. That's how absurd your position is.

Obviously the two turnovers were really bad. Even more obviously the defense was an abject failure and turnstile. Ben was not an abject failure.

I'm more disappointed in Cam Heyward and Tuitt than Ben.

Ben's overall playoff record is irrelevant to his play in the Jax game.

And check my post history. I'm a serial Ben complainer and do not understand the ball washing he gets on this board.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:19 am 
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Speaking about the defense..., for me lit it was the secondary that let this defense/team down embarrassingly. Sans Hilton/Haden but Heyward didn't have his best game I agree. Tuitt played all season with essentially one arm and Hargrave had back issues I believe. Dupree and Watt were both M.I.A. and Shaz was out. Spence off his couch in place of Shaz? :lol: Jax knew this and took advantage. It was the staff's responsibility to prepare the bench and put their talent in positions to succeed. Didn't happen. It was the 'We do what we do' mentality and it failed epically, obviously. Not excuses just noting that defensive injuries, [debatable] proficient talent and poor technique cost this team a shot at the title IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:54 am 
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I just watched a Super Bowl where Tom Brady threw for over 500 yards and scored 33 points and lost.

This is today's NFL. To expect our defense to hold a team to what exactly, 20 points a game? 17 points? Less that that? How are we ever going to win a Super Bowl against Philly, or Atlanta, or New Orleans or a Green Bay, those teams with high powered offenses? They are going to score points no matter what. It is ridiculous to think that a defense is going to limit those teams to less than 20 points, or even 30 points.

In today's NFL your offense has to score points and a lot of them. This bad stretch with our offense, these last 9 games sort of reminds me of some Indy Colts fans I know. They would bitch and moan about how Peyton would have had more Super Bowl rings if it weren't for them having bad defenses. And yet, Manning and that offense were disappointing in the playoffs, those fantasy football darlings would often turn into pumpkins in the post season. Manning was 9-10 in the playoffs, and in 10 of those games his offenses scored 18 points or less. But yeah, the defense was the issue, of course!

Listen, nobody has to agree with me, this is a board and we all express our opinions. This is mine. Our offense has been more disappointing than the defense, they take most of the blame these past 9 playoff games. The offense has to play better, has to score 30 or more points a game, not give up cheap TDs, get out to leads faster. If that happens everything else takes care of itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:04 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
I'm more disappointed in Cam Heyward and Tuitt than Ben.


Lit, I am fascinated how people can watch the same game and come to different conclusions, or see things differently. In this Jax game, as much as I was disappointed in Ben, the player I was most disappointed in was JuJu.

JuJu had become just as important as Brown and Bell in this offense. His 73.4% catch rate was 11 points higher than Brown. As that slot WR he came up with 39 first downs on his 58 catches. Jax was brilliant in their game plan. They were going to take JuJu out of the game, they were going to take this big play 3rd down playmaker out of the game. They were going to force Ben to have to look elsewhere.

They (Jax) were willing to let Vance McDonald have to prove himself, to pick up the slack. It was a good, calculated gamble. McDonald was targeted 16 times by Ben on the day, and McDonald did respond pretty well with 10 catches for 112 yards. But we found ourselves struggling with 3rd downs, picking up critical 1st downs throughout the game, we were attempting 6 fourth down conversions. That to me is not the definition of a good day on offense. If you are attempting 6 fourth downs, you are probably losing that game.

Yeah, JuJu had 1 meaningless TD with what, 1 second on the clock at the end of the game, but up to that point he had 2 catches for 1 yard. Like I said, Jacksonville's game plan was brilliant. JuJu was on the field for 91% of the snaps on offense and he had 2 catches for 1 yard up until that last TD with one second left on the clock.

That is why I love the Jaylin Samuels pick. We need to have more options on offense, any one player can be taken out of a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:07 am 
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They scored over 40 against Jax. so there. The offense has been a failure many times in the playoffs. Jax was not one of those times. I won't just lump them all together.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:39 am 
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R S wrote:
They scored over 40 against Jax. so there. The offense has been a failure many times in the playoffs. Jax was not one of those times. I won't just lump them all together.


Totally agree here, RS. The offense struggling in a game against the Chiefs two years ago doesn't mean they struggled against Jacksonville last year. That offense made some heroic plays to keep the team in the game while the defense laid down over and over, to the point where I'm sitting there yelling at them to just let Jax score to save time.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:58 am 
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Quote:
Listen, nobody has to agree with me, this is a board and we all express our opinions. This is mine. Our offense has been more disappointing than the defense, they take most of the blame these past 9 playoff games. The offense has to play better, has to score 30 or more points a game, not give up cheap TDs, get out to leads faster. If that happens everything else takes care of itself.
I agree with you. But this topic is like a political thread. There doesn't seem to be middle ground or acceptance that two concepts can coexist at the same time.

No doubt the defense was a turnstile, but until they had their backs against the wall, the offense wasn't exactly humming. Everything was desperation, not a well oiled machine. Luck played a role as well, but the defense had zero luck. Cannot deny those 14 pts BR gave them, but we also don't know if the D would have given them up anyway. Shit is what it was. Team effort, team loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Today’s NFL sucks, but so does the Steelers defense.

Maybe Ben has zero faith in this defense and feels like he has to take chances to out score every team especially in the post season.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching to 4/3 base defense
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:29 pm 
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You can't look at either offense or defense in a vacuum-- they work together, succeed together, fail together.

What the defense is doing sets the tone for how the offense plays and vice-versa. The style of the game and how it plays out has its roots in what offense, defense, and special teams (and coaching thereof) are doing/gameplanned.

I think you have to look at the performances holistically: mistakes can be found in every layer of this game. Which ones were important? Which ones were ultimately fatal?

You can successfully argue that the offense's early mistakes made the patient sick, which then affected the pressure on the D to not just stop the other team in the normal attrition style but to attempt to shut them down, so that the offense would have a chance to catch up.

There was a point in the game (early second half) where the patient reached an equilibrium: offense caught up to within one score, defense stopped the other team a couple of times... the game became a game again.

If I had to pinpoint what went (ultimately, fatally) wrong at that point, it would be:

A. sudden shift to conservative play-calling (Haley? Tomlin? Ben?)
B. failure of OL/All-Pro RB to make 1st downs when running into stacked boxes (OL? LB? Ben?)
C. refusal to call QB sneak (Haley? Tomlin? AR2? Ben? Ben's wife?)
D. missed holding/DPI call on 4th down throw that otherwise was perfectly executed (NFL)

E. That led to a defensive series where the dam finally broke on a short-handed defense, devoid of its best playmaker, with 3 front 7 players playing with significant injuries, and saddled with 5 DBs who had costly mental mistakes or physical limitations throughout the year. (Entire defense? Burns? Mitchell? Safeties? Run defense? DL? Bud? Coaching?)

ABCD again made the patient critical, E was official cause of death.

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