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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
We can be just like Europe....all it takes is accepting higher taxes, higher unemployment, lower wages and lower growth. UTOPIA!!!


Love zee Germans, though.

Ever been to Aachen? Köln? Berlin?

I think Germany is currently at 3.4%?

Sure, higher taxes, but better primary education, way better trade schooling, better funded uni’s without the stupid American obsession of going to college, and, of course, a good health care policy for their situation (for Germany it works).

For starters, the USA spend WAY more money on education than Germany - In 2014, it was $1,400/student more for primary & secondary, and over $10,000/year more for college students. American school systems are excellent at pissing away money. Oddly, the one country that has consistently out-spent the US in education is Norway, and they have tended to rank lower in educational outcomes. Go figure.


Anyway, I was going to write something earlier, but then the weekend happened....Europe is not some giant monolith and things are very different between countries.

France famously has a short work-week with loads of vacation time. The flip side is France's per capita GDP is $20k/year lower and unemployment is 3x larger than the US.
Switzerland? They have a highly federalized system of government and non-existent financial regulations, plus very low corporate tax rates. Ireland also has very lax business rules.
Scandinavia? No multi-culturalism, and each country is notorious for poor assimilation of immigrants.
Germany is famous for it's complex political system (thanks to post-WW2 divisions and eventually reunification). It's not a model that other nations can/should adapt.

Also, none of these countries are meeting NATO spending obligations. Whether you think it's a priority or not, Europe pretty much incapable of defending itself (other than the Swiss and maybe the Finns).



If you are spending so much on education I would say your ROI is pretty shitty.

I think you are spending so much (if what you stated is true which I have my doubts) I think it is related to having your education system like your health care system designed as a for profit system. Health care and education should not be for the rich, but for everyone. Thats why Canadians spend $4500 (CDN)a year per person for health care and the USA around $9000 USD per person.

Anyhow look at the rankings in this link, look at how the socialist countries are faring as they understand investing in everyone's education pays dividends in the end.
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/conten ... education/

USA 17th in happiness scale, me thinks you need to rethink things :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Stinger8 wrote:
f you are spending so much on education I would say your ROI is pretty shitty.

I think you are spending so much (if what you stated is true which I have my doubts) I think it is related to having your education system like your health care system designed as a for profit system. Health care and education should not be for the rich, but for everyone. Thats why Canadians spend $4500 (CDN)a year per person for health care and the USA around $9000 USD per person.

Anyhow look at the rankings in this link, look at how the socialist countries are faring as they understand investing in everyone's education pays dividends in the end.
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/conten ... education/

USA 17th in happiness scale, me thinks you need to rethink things :cry:

Yeah, no kidding the ROI is bad - I personally blame bloated administrative costs. It really has nothing to do with schools operating "as a for profit system". From that article:
Quote:
1. The Chicago Board of Education, which has 3,300 employees, is larger than the entire Japanese Ministry of Education.

2. The New York City public schools system has 250 times as many administrators as the New York Catholic school system (6,000 administrators in the public school system versus 24 in the Catholic school system), even though New York public schools have only four times as many students as the Catholic schools.


Regarding health care - the US is by far the #1 driver of medical research. In fact, the US has published more research in the last 20 years than the UK, China, and Germany (numbers 2-4) COMBINED.

The US also has the best survival rates for cancer in the world.


Also, for future reference - please don't use listicles from advocacy groups to try to back your argument. It looks really dumb.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Regarding health care - the US is by far the #1 driver of medical research. In fact, the US has published more research in the last 20 years than the UK, China, and Germany (numbers 2-4) COMBINED.

The US also has the best survival rates for cancer in the world.


Also, for future reference - please don't use listicles from advocacy groups to try to back your argument. It looks really dumb.


So why is everyone complaining about healthcare cost?

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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:23 pm 
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It seems as though I am uniquely able to settle this debate and hopefully provide a fair and balanced viewpoint.

I have a dog, who is the light of my life, and the world's most perfect creature (my wife would agree with that statement; there are no hard feelings).

I have two cats who are wonderful and incredibly affectionate. They cuddle with me, sit on my lap, and purr pretty much 24/7.

Much as I love them, my dog sits head and shoulders above them on the hierarchy. He is a precious angel, sent from heaven, whom we have done nothing to deserve.

As for the barking... That was a bit of an issue when my dog was a puppy. My downstairs neighbors continuously complained to my landlord about my pup's barking. But he was a puppy -- there was nothing to be done about it until he matured a little bit. Anyway, one of us had to go. As is typically the case with me, the one to go was the other guy. Did my best to reason with him, but he complained about every little noise, right down to my footsteps and even my oscillating fan. When it got to that point, I threw my hands up in the air. Some people are impossible to please. The person who replaced him didn't complain once. Now the only time my dog barks is when I hold a stick in front of him and he wants me to throw it.


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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:31 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
So why is everyone complaining about healthcare cost?

Because it's expensive. My point is that quality in the US tends to be much better than other countries (specifically for things like cancer treatment and orthopedics), and the trade off is that it's more expensive. Not to mention that the US dominates the rest of the world in terms of medical innovation. There are trade-offs to any system you have. I get annoyed by the people who suggest moving the US to a European-style healthcare system will somehow be a cure-all.

The big problem in the US seems to be bureaucratic bloat. And for some reason, it's a bigger problem here than in alot of other countries. I mentioned Education above, but that also applies to:
Transportation Projects
State Healthcare
Federal Health Care
Military
I could go on....

The big reason I have absolutely no faith in a government-run health care system in the US (among other things) is that I have absolutely 0 faith that our government can keep costs under control. I'd really like to see any sort of Federal program that
1. Delivers what it promises, while...
2. Keeping costs under control

I have yet to see a good example in my lifetime. Absolutely no one is opposed to eliminating waste/fraud/abuse/redundancy out of the system, yet we're completely incapable of doing it......meanwhile, Medicare and Social Security are steaming toward bankruptcy, and no one is willing to do a damn thing about it.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Lit, I love dogs but 100% agree with you in terms of the annoying dog constantly barking next door.

Just because I love dogs doesn’t mean that I love YOUR dog while it barks it’s fucking head off and you do nothing about it.

Have had neighbors like that and it’s infuriating. I never allowed my dog to do that.

Also agree there are cats that can be quite affectionate. It’s just different and not quite the same.


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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
jebrick wrote:
So why is everyone complaining about healthcare cost?

Because it's expensive. My point is that quality in the US tends to be much better than other countries (specifically for things like cancer treatment and orthopedics), and the trade off is that it's more expensive. Not to mention that the US dominates the rest of the world in terms of medical innovation. There are trade-offs to any system you have. I get annoyed by the people who suggest moving the US to a European-style healthcare system will somehow be a cure-all.

The big problem in the US seems to be bureaucratic bloat. And for some reason, it's a bigger problem here than in alot of other countries. I mentioned Education above, but that also applies to:
Transportation Projects
State Healthcare
Federal Health Care
Military
I could go on....

The big reason I have absolutely no faith in a government-run health care system in the US (among other things) is that I have absolutely 0 faith that our government can keep costs under control. I'd really like to see any sort of Federal program that
1. Delivers what it promises, while...
2. Keeping costs under control

I have yet to see a good example in my lifetime. Absolutely no one is opposed to eliminating waste/fraud/abuse/redundancy out of the system, yet we're completely incapable of doing it......meanwhile, Medicare and Social Security are steaming toward bankruptcy, and no one is willing to do a damn thing about it.


Your explanation above why health care costs are higher in the USA is absolutely without merit. The reason your health care costs are so high per capita is PROFIT.

Here is a list you may approve of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... per_capita

Look at how much higher US health care costs compared to ALL other government run systems world wide. You are significantly more expensive than even Switzerland where a coffee costs $6.00. They are not for profit systems as health care and education should not be for profit enterprises and the US systems and their failures vis a vis cost in both prove that in spades. Your comment that a government cannot run a cost effective health care system is refuted by the list attached. Please spare me your retort about quality in the USA being more expensive...... by double?


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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Stinger8 wrote:
Your explanation above why health care costs are higher in the USA is absolutely without merit. The reason your health care costs are so high per capita is PROFIT.

Please show your work. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
Your explanation above why health care costs are higher in the USA is absolutely without merit. The reason your health care costs are so high per capita is PROFIT.

Please show your work. Thanks.


Should I call you Professor Pabst?? The proof is in the link I posted. You are BY FAR the most expensive and its not because your quality is so far better than EVERYONE else. Governments run all the other systems AND they are dramatically more cost effective than the US system. Think critically.


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 Post subject: Re: New National Anthem Policy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Stinger8 wrote:
Pabst wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
Your explanation above why health care costs are higher in the USA is absolutely without merit. The reason your health care costs are so high per capita is PROFIT.

Please show your work. Thanks.


Should I call you Professor Pabst?? The proof is in the link I posted. You are BY FAR the most expensive and its not because your quality is so far better than EVERYONE else. Governments run all the other systems AND they are dramatically more cost effective than the US system. Think critically.

No. The link you posted just shows that the costs in the US are higher. You are inferring "profit" as a primary factor without providing evidence. Correlation =/= causation.
Secondly, other health systems reduce cost by rationing care. Please compare wait times for a knee replacement in Canada vs. the US. Also note the Alfie Evans case in the UK.

And yes, Professor Pabst is fine, thanks.

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