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 Post subject: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:32 pm 
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this is a good article about drafting Ricardo Coclough

http://www.steelers.com/news/labriola-o ... a06cf5aa6b


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Imagine drafting MICHAEL TURNER with that pick instead of NATE ADIBI -- wow


Last edited by steel on Mon May 14, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:53 am 
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Troy Edwards is the reach draft example. Only passed on Jevon Kearse and John Tait to pick him.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:37 am 
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During the Tomlin/Colbert drafting era, here are the top 5 biggest reaches IMO:

1. Terrell Edmunds
2. Artie Burns
3. Sean Davis
4. Le'Veon Bell
5. Jason Worilds

And the biggest "value" picks, i.e. guys who were expected to go higher and fell:

1. David DeCastro
2. LaMarr Woodley
3. Stephon Tuitt
4. Rashard Mendenhall
5. Mike Adams

Not surprisingly, they've done a lot better with the guys who have fallen rather than calling their shot and drafting someone a lot higher than most saw coming IMO. Edmunds is the true test. Everything about this guy screams he's mediocre, but we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:39 am 
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Might even add Shamarko Thomas to that list. Trading a future pick for a bust is a 'reach' in my book all day long.


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:03 am 
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You can't really put Edmunds on that list just yet. All the others have a history that can be judged. We don't know what's up with the new guy until the end at least, of the upcoming season.

Him and or Allen puts on 15 lbs and they're the same size as shaz. Almost as fast.

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Last edited by COR-TEN on Sun May 13, 2018 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:12 am 
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The key to a “reach” is that you ignored a higher rated guy on your board in favor of a “need” pick

In that case, Who did they have rated higher than Edmunds?

Or Worilds?
Or Shamarko?
Or any of the other “reaches” you mention?

Yes Troy E was totally a reach (because we know they had Kearse rated higher)

According to Colbert they had Edmonds rated highe than any ILB on their board

If they had chosen an ILB over Edmunds then THAT would have been a reach

A “reach” isn’t a guy who, IN RETROSPECT, didn’t turn out as u expected
As I said above a “reach” is a guy u choose for “need” over a more highly rated guy


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:57 am 
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steel wrote:
The key to a “reach” is that you ignored a higher rated guy on your board in favor of a “need” pick

In that case, Who did they have rated higher than Edmunds?

Or Worilds?
Or Shamarko?
Or any of the other “reaches” you mention?

Yes Troy E was totally a reach (because we know they had Kearse rated higher)

According to Colbert they had Edmonds rated highe than any ILB on their board

If they had chosen an ILB over Edmunds then THAT would have been a reach

A “reach” isn’t a guy who, IN RETROSPECT, didn’t turn out as u expected
As I said above a “reach” is a guy u choose for “need” over a more highly rated guy
Fair enough.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:43 pm 
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steel wrote:
The key to a “reach” is that you ignored a higher rated guy on your board in favor of a “need” pick

In that case, Who did they have rated higher than Edmunds?

Or Worilds?
Or Shamarko?
Or any of the other “reaches” you mention?

Yes Troy E was totally a reach (because we know they had Kearse rated higher)

According to Colbert they had Edmonds rated highe than any ILB on their board

If they had chosen an ILB over Edmunds then THAT would have been a reach

A “reach” isn’t a guy who, IN RETROSPECT, didn’t turn out as u expected
As I said above a “reach” is a guy u choose for “need” over a more highly rated guy


I'm speaking more about a reach in terms of what the NFL draft community expects. Usually, when the Steelers take a guy the rest of draft twitter-verse thinks is is a reach, it's not like it has been a stunning success. Bell is really the one guy that stands out since most saw him as a 3rd/4th round guy, but he transformed his body in a way I don't think anyone outside of the Steelers saw coming. Burns hasn't been great, Sean Davis has been awful, I think Worilds was a reach as I didn't recall at the time him being seen as that high and he didn't pan out. We'll see with Edmunds. I think he's going to a guy who makes a splash play or two here and there and then sucks the other 40 plays, but we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:01 pm 
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I understand what you're saying TB -- but:

1. draft pundits are mostly full of shit and don't really know what NFL teams are thinking. Terrell Edmunds was getting a lot of pre-draft buzz (quietly), and there was definitely a feeling that he would go high in the 2nd. We chose him at #28, not #10.

2. I think the Labiola article nails the important point that REACH has to do with drafting NEED over quality. This is a key point.

3. I'm not sure who we really passed on that was way better than Edmunds. Maybe Darius Guice or Nick Chubb will be better, but we definitely didn't need a RB here. What defenders did we pass on in favor of Edmunds? And, are you sure those guys we passed on were ranked much higher than Edmunds on the Steelers board?

4. I know we won't ever have access to the Steelers board, but I just don't see any big stud D players who we passed on here. Darius Leonard? Harold Landry? Josh Jackson? Is it super clear that those guys are much better than Edmunds? We won't know for awhile, but I don't doubt that the Steelers did their homework on all those guys, and they liked Edmunds better.

5. The Edmunds pick doesn't "stink" like the Troy Edwards pick or the Ricardo Coclough pick. When we drafted Edwards/Coclough, there were significantly better players available who we passed on, in favor of a bullshit need pick. Harold Landry most certainly isn't Jevon Kearse right now.


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:31 pm 
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I think the Steelers had Rudolph rated over both Edmunds and Washington. We know they had him rated over Washington since Colbert admitted they had a first round grade on Rudolph. We don't know if the Steelers had a first round grade on Edmunds. My guess is they had him as last of the tier of safeties they would consider in the first, all the ILBs they were considering were gone, and they were dead set on taking either a S or ILB early since trading down apparently isn't an option for this organization, which is f'n stupid considering the draft is a crapshoot, they build this team mainly through the draft far more than most other teams, and collecting more draft picks to give yourself more chances to hit should be a huge priority. But whatever.

As for who would be better players, I think the next three guys taken directly after him (Bryan, Hughes, and Michel) will definitely be better NFL players. I would have taken those three, Landry, Jackson, Goedert, Connor Williams, Anthony Miller, JB III, Oliver, and Guice over him as I think they will all be betters players as well. Several players in the third I liked more than him as well. Edmunds is half the player his brother is.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:46 pm 
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TB wrote:
Isince trading down apparently isn't an option for this organization, which is f'n stupid


...or there were no trading partners they could agree on terms with...

Takes two to tango.


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
TB wrote:
Isince trading down apparently isn't an option for this organization, which is f'n stupid


...or there were no trading partners they could agree on terms with...

Takes two to tango.


Yeah, but it only takes one to do the stanky leg. 8-)

Kevin Colbert has never traded out of the first round. I don't believe we've even traded down in the first since 2001 when we traded down a couple of spots to draft Casey Hampton. It's just not their philosophy. Some teams like New England and Baltimore use their draft capital to acquire more resources and more picks, the Steelers don't.

The Patriots have consistently fleeced teams with their trade downs, and only rarely (like missing out on Greg Jennings in 2006) has it bit them. Here's a good article that shows their success in being aggressive in looking for deals on draft day: https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2017/4/15/15164566/nfl-draft-trades-patriots-won-bill-belichick

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:25 pm 
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I wanted Michel after Evans went to the Titans. If they convert one of the safeties to ILB I’m hoping it’s Allen, he couldn’t cover college players very well, the pro players will eat him up.


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:44 am 
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steel wrote:
Imagine drafting MICHAEL TURNER with that pick instead of RICARDO COCLOUGH -- wow


Did you read the article? Coclough was not a reach. He was highly touted and graded as a late 1st Rd or early 2nd rd. They drafted Nathanial Adibi in the 5th round because Cowher demanded a LB while Turner was sitting at the top of the board.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:27 pm 
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P.S.: Colbert never said they had Rudolph rated as a 1st rounder. What he said was that the Steelers had Rudolph rated "right there" with the top QBs in this draft. He also said something about the difference between these drafted prospects being "hundredths of a point" at times, despite different rounds. Whatever that means is up to interpretation.

I took that to mean they had him near the top of the QB positional board, but not necessarily as a 1st rounder. I do agree that their actions seemed to show they had Washington and Rudolph rated about the same on their board. That's what you do when that happens-- you draft one and you try to trade up to get the other. I just did the same thing in the board draft, selecting Anthony Miller and then desperately trying to trade up ASAP to get Nwosu.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:25 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
P.S.: Colbert never said they had Rudolph rated as a 1st rounder. What he said was that the Steelers had Rudolph rated "right there" with the top QBs in this draft. He also said something about the difference between these drafted prospects being "hundreds of a point" at times, despite different rounds. Whatever that means is up to interpretation.

I took that to mean they had him near the top of the QB positional board, but not necessarily as a 1st rounder. I do agree that their actions seemed to show they had Washington and Rudolph rated about the same on their board. That's what you do when that happens-- you draft one and you try to trade up to get the other. I just did the same thing in the board draft, selecting Anthony Miller and then desperately trying to trade up ASAP to get Nwosu.

If they had both Rudolph and Washington rated about the same, the main question they probably asked themselves was how many teams need a top WR or a future QB between picks 60 and 79? I'm sure they realized Washington wouldn't last and there was a halfway good chance Rudolph might. Cincy being the main obstacle and they had a plan for that, as they showed.


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:30 pm 
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interesting article looking back at 2015 draft
remarkable how bad the bills and browns did
and you can see how poor and good drafts impacted teams heavily.
steelers had a poor one

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/regr ... to-d-or-f/


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:57 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
P.S.: Colbert never said they had Rudolph rated as a 1st rounder. What he said was that the Steelers had Rudolph rated "right there" with the top QBs in this draft. He also said something about the difference between these drafted prospects being "hundreds of a point" at times, despite different rounds. Whatever that means is up to interpretation.

I took that to mean they had him near the top of the QB positional board, but not necessarily as a 1st rounder. I do agree that their actions seemed to show they had Washington and Rudolph rated about the same on their board. That's what you do when that happens-- you draft one and you try to trade up to get the other. I just did the same thing in the board draft, selecting Anthony Miller and then desperately trying to trade up ASAP to get Nwosu.


That's a fair point. He said that Rudolph had "first round grades on him" which to me sounds like he's talking about their internal scouts and at least more than one having a first round grade on Rudolph. Whether that means that was their overall consensus, or if Colbert himself agreed with those that graded him that high, we don't know. Here's the full excerpt:

Quote:
“It was really a simple choice,” Colbert said. “Because we had Mason Rudolph rated among a really good group of quarterbacks. Which was unique to this draft. We haven’t seen a group like this in all honesty since the 2004 draft when we were able to take Ben. Mason had first round grades on him. We thought he could be an eventual starter in this league at some point.”

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 7:49 pm 
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R S wrote:
steel wrote:
Imagine drafting MICHAEL TURNER with that pick instead of RICARDO COCLOUGH -- wow


Did you read the article? Coclough was not a reach. He was highly touted and graded as a late 1st Rd or early 2nd rd. They drafted Nathanial Adibi in the 5th round because Cowher demanded a LB while Turner was sitting at the top of the board.


Of course -- I posted it!
I confused Coclough /Adibi in my post -- SORRY!

weird sounding last names of players who were both incredibly shitty -- easy to confuse for me!


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:13 pm 
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By the way, I think the assessment of this class of QBs as being comparable to 2004 is ludicrous. Even if Rudolph turns out to be a quality starter, I don't see three HOF type QBs in this draft class.

Next year might be an entirely different story-- I think it will be the best QB class we've had in a while.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
By the way, I think the assessment of this class of QBs as being comparable to 2004 is ludicrous. Even if Rudolph turns out to be a quality starter, I don't see three HOF type QBs in this draft class.

Next year might be an entirely different story-- I think it will be the best QB class we've had in a while.


Agreed. I thought before the draft it was closer to 1999 than 2004. I didn't like any of the top guys, tried to talk myself into Rosen despite his warts, hated Jackson from day one. I honestly think Rudolph could end up the best of the bunch.

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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:19 pm 
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TB wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
By the way, I think the assessment of this class of QBs as being comparable to 2004 is ludicrous. Even if Rudolph turns out to be a quality starter, I don't see three HOF type QBs in this draft class.

Next year might be an entirely different story-- I think it will be the best QB class we've had in a while.


Agreed. I thought before the draft it was closer to 1999 than 2004. I didn't like any of the top guys, tried to talk myself into Rosen despite his warts, hated Jackson from day one. I honestly think Rudolph could end up the best of the bunch.


100% agreed - I wouldn't be surprised by that at all.


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 Post subject: Re: What a Reach in the Draft Looks Like - Labriola
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:05 am 
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TB wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
By the way, I think the assessment of this class of QBs as being comparable to 2004 is ludicrous. Even if Rudolph turns out to be a quality starter, I don't see three HOF type QBs in this draft class.

Next year might be an entirely different story-- I think it will be the best QB class we've had in a while.


Agreed. I thought before the draft it was closer to 1999 than 2004. I didn't like any of the top guys, tried to talk myself into Rosen despite his warts, hated Jackson from day one. I honestly think Rudolph could end up the best of the bunch.


He will have the least pressure on him to be forced into the lineup of any of the QBs taken in the class, and will likely have the best offensive supporting cast of any of them once he gets into a game. Neither of those things hurt.


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