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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:53 pm 
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Harrison retired and R Lee Ermey expired over the weekend.

The world has a lot less testosterone than it did on Friday.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:09 pm 
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JackLambert58 wrote:
One of my all-time favorite Steelers. My favorite Steeler during the Tomlin era. Thank you for everything, James. Especially Super Bowl XLIII.

https://youtu.be/RqnQwKAI4OE


Greatest play in NFL history.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:42 pm 
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Not the first and last to make a mistake at the end of the career! All of the these players embrace the famous Dylan Thomas poem when it comes time.

I suspect this thread would be a bit different had we perhaps met the Pats in the playoffs, and Harrison was thought to have provided too much intel.

If a loss to the Pats happened again with Harrison in the mix, this thread would definitely have a different tone.

He will come around and retire as a Steeler, most likely in Canton on 2 games alone in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:59 am 
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BarryFoster wrote:
Obviously wrote:
Tomlin doesn't suck. He just can't beat Belichick. As I said when the Pats signed James, I trust BB's judgment far more than Tomlin's. BB saw he still had something in the tank. Tomlin preferred to believe Moats and Chickillo had more to give. That says all I need to know.

Thanks for everything, James!


He can’t beat Jax either


He also can't beat teams that have Mike Glennon playing QB.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:06 am 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
BarryFoster wrote:
Obviously wrote:
Tomlin doesn't suck. He just can't beat Belichick. As I said when the Pats signed James, I trust BB's judgment far more than Tomlin's. BB saw he still had something in the tank. Tomlin preferred to believe Moats and Chickillo had more to give. That says all I need to know.

Thanks for everything, James!


He can’t beat Jax either


He also can't beat teams that have Mike Glennon playing QB.

Ouch! :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:34 am 
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Saw the title and thought this could get ugly.

Very happy to see the haters showing respect (so far).

Steelers have had some of the greatest OLB's (3-4 scheme) in the history of the NFL. My top 3 Kevin Greene, Greg Lloydd, and James "the king" Harrison.

Greene was the most athletic, Lloyd the nastiest, and James a combination of both.

The king gave this team some great contributions, put it on the line every week, worked harder than anyone in season and off, and was one of the best defensive players to ever wear BnG. Prideful guy and this quality may have been the biggest reason for his success. Small colledge guy, undrafted, cut several times yet maybe it was pride that kept him believeing and grinding until he made himself into a legendary player.

James gonna miss you, and thanks for all the "FUCK YEA"S" after a TFL, a strip sack, bull rushing a massive LT into the QB, bulldogging a Browns fan ( :lol: ) or knocking a receiver out, with a clean hit in the flats.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:26 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
I don't particularly care about him going to the Pats. Dude needed a job, they offered him a job. Simple as that, as far as I'm concerned.

I have more an issue with the juvenile way he handled not playing, than anything else.

That doesn't mean I hate him or don't appreciate what he's done for us. One of my all time favorite players, for sure. Just wish it ended a little more cleanly. Frankly, I wish he would have just stayed retired the first time so the ugliness would have never happened in the first place.

But oh well. The 100 yard INT return will continue to remain my favorite play in Steelers history.

^^^ THIS^^^

This is where I am as well. Both sides handled last season badly!!

Once the season started to progress it seems as though our scheme evolved to where LBs needed to be able to go side to side and drop into coverage as much if not more than going forward to rush the passer. That didn't fit with his skill set any more and it sounds like he got crabby and started acting like a bit of a Jagoff....Tomlin and the staff didn't like that attitude and the whole thing turned into a pissing match. While it didn’t need to get that far, it sounded like a number of players felt James was somewhat of a distraction.

I believe that the Steelers planned on bringing him back when they released him (though I'm not sure how clear they communicated it to him) and he gave a big old FU by going to the Pats. James got to go to another Super Bowl but he wasn't part of the Pats core so he was simply a chess piece to be used as needed.

I agree that BB is a better coach than Tomlin (though we’ll never really know how much better without knowing how much they “rule bending” gave him an advantage), but that still doesn’t mean that Tomlin isn’t one of the top few in the league right now.

That said I find it kind of interesting that BB also let some sort of pissing match impact his giving the Pats the best chance to win…..and he did it in the Super Bowl. Amendola recently said “Nobody really got an explanation for it. He's a brother of ours. He was a brother of ours that year. And I hate to see a guy who worked so hard throughout the season not get a chance to play in the biggest game of the year and really get no explanation for it."

While I wish the Steelers & Debo had handled things differently, even the great BB is prone to handling a personnel situation badly.

Seeing him in a Pats jersey on his ESPN stats page is just wrong so even after the way things I’d be OK if they all made up and he retired as a Steeler - but I just don’t see it happening.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Stillerz Bar wrote:
^^^ THIS^^^

This is where I am as well. Both sides handled last season badly!!

Once the season started to progress it seems as though our scheme evolved to where LBs needed to be able to go side to side and drop into coverage as much if not more than going forward to rush the passer. That didn't fit with his skill set any more and it sounds like he got crabby and started acting like a bit of a Jagoff....Tomlin and the staff didn't like that attitude and the whole thing turned into a pissing match. While it didn’t need to get that far, it sounded like a number of players felt James was somewhat of a distraction.

I believe that the Steelers planned on bringing him back when they released him (though I'm not sure how clear they communicated it to him) and he gave a big old FU by going to the Pats. James got to go to another Super Bowl but he wasn't part of the Pats core so he was simply a chess piece to be used as needed.

I agree that BB is a better coach than Tomlin (though we’ll never really know how much better without knowing how much they “rule bending” gave him an advantage), but that still doesn’t mean that Tomlin isn’t one of the top few in the league right now.

That said I find it kind of interesting that BB also let some sort of pissing match impact his giving the Pats the best chance to win…..and he did it in the Super Bowl. Amendola recently said “Nobody really got an explanation for it. He's a brother of ours. He was a brother of ours that year. And I hate to see a guy who worked so hard throughout the season not get a chance to play in the biggest game of the year and really get no explanation for it."

While I wish the Steelers & Debo had handled things differently, even the great BB is prone to handling a personnel situation badly.

Seeing him in a Pats jersey on his ESPN stats page is just wrong so even after the way things I’d be OK if they all made up and he retired as a Steeler - but I just don’t see it happening.[/quote]

Pride (on both sides) goeth before the fall


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:34 pm 
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ZZZZZZ.zzzzzzz.z.z.z.z.. . Snort. . ..ZZZZZZZZZZ.ZZZ.zzzzzzz.z.z.z.z

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Is JH a Hall of Famer?


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Is JH a Hall of Famer?


I think that's a very interesting question.

5 Pro Bowls
2 All Pros
1 Defensive MVP
One of the greatest plays in Super Bowl History.


Definitely guys in the hall right now with worse resumes than that.

But, without looking (so I could be wrong), I'd suspect there's guys not in who have better resumes, as well.

I think he definitely gets in, but it takes a few years after he's eligible.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
Is JH a Hall of Famer?


I think that's a very interesting question.

5 Pro Bowls
2 All Pros
1 Defensive MVP
One of the greatest plays in Super Bowl History.


Definitely guys in the hall right now with worse resumes than that.

But, without looking (so I could be wrong), I'd suspect there's guys not in who have better resumes, as well.

I think he definitely gets in, but it takes a few years after he's eligible.

Pro Bowls mean almost nothing. They hand out PB berths like free samples at Sams Club.
I would’ve thought he’d have more than 2 All Pro seasons.
I don’t think he’s sniffing the HoF.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Don’t forget about 2 time medicine ball volleyball MVP!


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:50 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Is JH a Hall of Famer?


I think that James has at least as good of an argument for being a Hall of Famer as Kurt Warner and Terrell Davis. All three had amazing peaks but merely very good total career statistics. I think the whole debacle this year has hurt JH's chances of induction somewhat, however, as it probably chills some of the support he'd get from the Pittsburgh sportswriters.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:26 am 
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Stillerz Bar wrote:

I agree that BB is a better coach than Tomlin (though we’ll never really know how much better without knowing how much they “rule bending” gave him an advantage), but that still doesn’t mean that Tomlin isn’t one of the top few in the league right now.

That said I find it kind of interesting that BB also let some sort of pissing match impact his giving the Pats the best chance to win…..and he did it in the Super Bowl. Amendola recently said “Nobody really got an explanation for it. He's a brother of ours. He was a brother of ours that year. And I hate to see a guy who worked so hard throughout the season not get a chance to play in the biggest game of the year and really get no explanation for it."



On the "rule bending" I would need proof it happened during Steelers-Patriots games 2007-present. And are we sure Tomlin doesn't bend the rules as well?

Totally agree with you on BB's decision in SB vs. Philly. BB let his pride and arrogance come before a championship. As fateful as Tomlin's decision to ease in to the SB vs. Packers.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:35 am 
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Obviously wrote:
Stillerz Bar wrote:

I agree that BB is a better coach than Tomlin (though we’ll never really know how much better without knowing how much they “rule bending” gave him an advantage), but that still doesn’t mean that Tomlin isn’t one of the top few in the league right now.

That said I find it kind of interesting that BB also let some sort of pissing match impact his giving the Pats the best chance to win…..and he did it in the Super Bowl. Amendola recently said “Nobody really got an explanation for it. He's a brother of ours. He was a brother of ours that year. And I hate to see a guy who worked so hard throughout the season not get a chance to play in the biggest game of the year and really get no explanation for it."



On the "rule bending" I would need proof it happened during Steelers-Patriots games 2007-present. And are we sure Tomlin doesn't bend the rules as well?.


Tomlin was fined $100k for his Thanksgiving 2013 dumb stunt against the Ravens. :roll:
His hands are not clean.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:49 am 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
Is JH a Hall of Famer?


I think that James has at least as good of an argument for being a Hall of Famer as Kurt Warner and Terrell Davis. All three had amazing peaks but merely very good total career statistics. I think the whole debacle this year has hurt JH's chances of induction somewhat, however, as it probably chills some of the support he'd get from the Pittsburgh sportswriters.



Those are certainly two of the nams I was thinking about. Lynn Swann was another. I wasn't around when Swann played, but the more I look into his numbers and resume, the more I understand other fanbases being pissed that he's in the Hall of Fame. It was a different era, for sure, but even comparing his numbers against other WRs of that ara shows that he didn't really stack up. Which tells me that he's proof that a few Super Bowls and a bunch of highlight reel plays is enough to get a guy in.

And I think that's where Harrison's bid benefits. He may not have been as good for as long as many people would like to see out of a HoF candidate, but I think his reputation and number of highlight reel plays gets him the nod eventually. That, and he was kind of the last of the dominating bully archetype, the last of an era. Remember, he was the player the NFL targeted when they originally got a stick up their collective asses about the head to head hits and became the poster boy for fines and suspensions over such hits.

Voters will remember that the same way they'll remember rules being made up for Deacon Jones, Mel Blount and Hines Ward.

So I get looking at Harrison's resume and thinking it's not enough. But I do think his overall legacy, like Swann's, makes up for that and will give him the nod at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:47 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Is JH a Hall of Famer?


52nd in sacks all-time and probably up there, as well, in forced fumbles. With a DPOY to go along with that SB interception, he SHOULD be a lock for the HOF. Guy was a beast for the better part of 10 years - and just think almost all that in his 30's

Probably one of the most feared/dominant defenders and hardest hitters in his era. I doubt the Goodell bullshit or other potential issues are remotely enough to keep him out.

His longevity and "production" is kind of comparable to Polamulu, who played just 12 years. Troy started 25 more games, but he was so struggling with injuries in many of those he was a shell of himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:25 am 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
Is JH a Hall of Famer?


I think that James has at least as good of an argument for being a Hall of Famer as Kurt Warner and Terrell Davis. All three had amazing peaks but merely very good total career statistics. I think the whole debacle this year has hurt JH's chances of induction somewhat, however, as it probably chills some of the support he'd get from the Pittsburgh sportswriters.



Those are certainly two of the nams I was thinking about. Lynn Swann was another. I wasn't around when Swann played, but the more I look into his numbers and resume, the more I understand other fanbases being pissed that he's in the Hall of Fame. It was a different era, for sure, but even comparing his numbers against other WRs of that ara shows that he didn't really stack up. Which tells me that he's proof that a few Super Bowls and a bunch of highlight reel plays is enough to get a guy in.

And I think that's where Harrison's bid benefits. He may not have been as good for as long as many people would like to see out of a HoF candidate, but I think his reputation and number of highlight reel plays gets him the nod eventually. That, and he was kind of the last of the dominating bully archetype, the last of an era. Remember, he was the player the NFL targeted when they originally got a stick up their collective asses about the head to head hits and became the poster boy for fines and suspensions over such hits.

Voters will remember that the same way they'll remember rules being made up for Deacon Jones, Mel Blount and Hines Ward.

So I get looking at Harrison's resume and thinking it's not enough. But I do think his overall legacy, like Swann's, makes up for that and will give him the nod at some point.



This.

The other teams in the league feared this guy. <<<<that is an understatement. He'll get in.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:36 pm 
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I'm with Jobu. I don't think Harrison is close to the HOF. As mentioned, he's 52nd all time in sacks (with Von Miller, Clay Matthews, and JJ Watt all likely to pass him this year). Adding to that, lets compare some numbers:

James Harrison:
84.5 Sacks
34 Forced Fumbles, 9 Fumble Recoveries
8 Interceptions

5x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro, 1x DPOY, 2x Super Bowl Champ


Joey Porter
98 Sacks
25 Forced Fumbles, 10 Fumble Recoveries
12 Interceptions

4x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, 1x Super Bowl Champ

Pat Swilling
107.5 Sacks
36 Forced Fumbles, 11 Fumble Recoveries
6 Interceptions

5x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro, 1x DPOY

Neil Smith
104.5 Sacks
30 Forced Fumbles, 12 Fumble Recoveries
4 Interceptions

6x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, 1x Super Bowl Champ

Simeon Rice
122 Sacks
28 Forced Fumbles, 8 Fumble Recoveries
5 Interceptions

3x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, Rookie of the Year, 1x Super Bowl Champ


Rice, Swilling, and Porter aren't going into the Hall. Smith has been eligible for almost 15 years and hasn't gotten in.
Adding to that, there will be a glut of players with significantly better numbers becoming eligible around the same time: Julius Peppers, DeMarcus Ware, Jared Allen, Dwight Freeney, Terrell Suggs

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
I'm with Jobu. I don't think Harrison is close to the HOF. As mentioned, he's 52nd all time in sacks (with Von Miller, Clay Matthews, and JJ Watt all likely to pass him this year). Adding to that, lets compare some numbers:

James Harrison:
84.5 Sacks
34 Forced Fumbles, 9 Fumble Recoveries
8 Interceptions

5x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro, 1x DPOY, 2x Super Bowl Champ


Joey Porter
98 Sacks
25 Forced Fumbles, 10 Fumble Recoveries
12 Interceptions

4x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, 1x Super Bowl Champ

Pat Swilling
107.5 Sacks
36 Forced Fumbles, 11 Fumble Recoveries
6 Interceptions

5x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro, 1x DPOY

Neil Smith
104.5 Sacks
30 Forced Fumbles, 12 Fumble Recoveries
4 Interceptions

6x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, 1x Super Bowl Champ

Simeon Rice
122 Sacks
28 Forced Fumbles, 8 Fumble Recoveries
5 Interceptions

3x Pro Bowl, 1x All Pro, Rookie of the Year, 1x Super Bowl Champ


Rice, Swilling, and Porter aren't going into the Hall. Smith has been eligible for almost 15 years and hasn't gotten in.
Adding to that, there will be a glut of players with significantly better numbers becoming eligible around the same time: Julius Peppers, DeMarcus Ware, Jared Allen, Dwight Freeney, Terrell Suggs


But James has the iconic 99 YD game swinging pick six in the Super Bowl to go along with his DPOY. I have my doubts about whether James Harrison will ever make the Hall, I think he's a cut above the other LBs you listed on sentimentality alone. He feels like a guy who should be in the HoF, even though his overall numbers don't support it.

But if someone like Terrell Davis can get in, then maybe all those guys you named should also be in as well. I still can't believe Davis made it. Rueben Droughns looked like a stud in that Denver system. I also think that Kurt Warner's stint with the Giants should have been enough to torpedo his candidacy. Those guys set the bar low for HoF induction.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:56 pm 
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In the minds of many, James Harrison is roided up, dirty, and an asshole. Combine that with good-not-great career numbers, a slow start to his career, and some mediocre seasons, and I don't see him getting in.


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:34 am 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
BarryFoster wrote:
Obviously wrote:
Tomlin doesn't suck. He just can't beat Belichick. As I said when the Pats signed James, I trust BB's judgment far more than Tomlin's. BB saw he still had something in the tank. Tomlin preferred to believe Moats and Chickillo had more to give. That says all I need to know.

Thanks for everything, James!


He can’t beat Jax either


He also can't beat teams that have Mike Glennon playing QB.


Or tebow


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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:22 am 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
But James has the iconic 99 YD game swinging pick six in the Super Bowl to go along with his DPOY. I have my doubts about whether James Harrison will ever make the Hall, I think he's a cut above the other LBs you listed on sentimentality alone. He feels like a guy who should be in the HoF, even though his overall numbers don't support it.

But if someone like Terrell Davis can get in, then maybe all those guys you named should also be in as well. I still can't believe Davis made it. Rueben Droughns looked like a stud in that Denver system. I also think that Kurt Warner's stint with the Giants should have been enough to torpedo his candidacy. Those guys set the bar low for HoF induction.

Oh, I completely agree that TD shouldn't be in the Hall. That said, he is still one of only 7 players to top 2000 yards in a season; and i believe that his 97 and 98 seasons were the best 2 year stint in history (I could be wrong there). Kurt Warner led his team to the Super Bowl 3x; plus he's 5th all time in YPA, 3rd all time in completion %, and 10th in Passer Rating - that's not really a good comp.

With Harrison, his best season (2008) doesn't even register in the top 50 all time for sacks in a season. And his 7 forced fumbles are well short of the record (10). As a frame of reference, Robert Quinn bested those numbers in 2013, and he didn't win DPOY. There are plenty of guys with solid stats and iconic Super Bowl moments that won't sniff the Hall (Joe Flacco, for example).

Look at Harrison's overall body of work: He had 10+ sacks in a season only 3 times. As a comparison, Tamba Hali also did it 3 times (with greater overall totals), Cameron Wake 5x, Mario Williams 5x, Elvis Dumervil 4x. And that doesn't even get into the premier pass rushers of his generation.

Honestly, you could make a case that Harrison wasn't even a top 10 pass rusher while he played (I'm going to get alot of crap for this):
- Julius Peppers
- Jason Taylor
- Jared Allen
- John Abraham
- Dwight Freeney
- Terrell Suggs
- Robert Mathis
- Elvis Dumervil
- Von Miller
- Joey Porter

Great player? Yes. Iconic Steeler? Absolutely. Hall of Famer? No.

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 Post subject: Re: Harrison Retires
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Good analysis Pabst. The only thing about which I strongly disagree with you is Kurt Warner.

Tony Romo has better overall stats than Warner (including both compilation stats and efficiency stats, as Romo had a better career passer rating, equal career YPA, and only slightly worse career completion %), but I don't think he's considered Hall of Fame worthy. On top of that, Warner had a five year stretch in the middle of his (already short) career during which he just wasn't very good. Look at his stats from 2002-2006, at time during which he lost his job to Marc Bulger and played for 3 different teams. Is there any other QB in the Hall who had as bad of a 5 year stretch in the middle of their career?

Warner won a Super Bowl (barely, against a mediocre Jeff Fisher led Titans team), has a great story, and is a fairly charismatic personality. But I don't think he should have sniffed the Hall of Fame. The admission of Warner and TD last year to me really skews what it means to be a Hall of Famer. I guess they join Joe Namath in the "WTF are they doing here?" category.

And, funny enough, Joe Namath is the only Hall of Fame QB included as Kurt Warner's career comparison on ProFootballReference: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... rnKu00.htm

EDIT: Here's an interesting link to analysis from a Cowboys fan regarding why Romo should not make the Hall of Fame. He has some interesting comparisons with Roethlisberger, Warner, Rivers and others: https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2018/3/ ... ll-of-fame

Basically, Warner made the Hall because of his story, his outlier MVP years, and his Super Bowl win. His overall body of work doesn't merit inclusion, IMO. I still think an argument can be made that if Warner (and TD) are in the Hall, James Harrison should be too based on the same sentimentality + high-quality outlier year justifications for admitting those two (though ultimately I don't think any of the three truly deserve it).


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