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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:24 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Why are the Dolphins cutting him again after just signing him a year ago?


Price vs production.

The Dolphins also basically HAVE TO go younger. They're rebuilding.

Timmons going back to Pittsburgh, is at least in my book, virtually certain.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
The thing is that there is really no danger of Timmons stealing any reps from a younger player Steelafan77.

Did James Harrison steal reps away from TJ Watt?

Did Willie Gay keep Mike Hilton off the field?

When Cam Sutton was finally activated did Coty Sensabaugh keep him off the field?

The answer to all of these question is no. If there is a young player, even a rookie, capable of playing then Butler/Tomlin have no issue starting him over the veteran. Dick LeBeau left 3 years ago, that letting rookies get splinters in their ass riding the pine, left with him.

But this draft, what if all of the top ILBs are all gone before 28? Last year I watched all 3 ILBs go before our pick. I was hoping Jarrad Davis would slip to us, he didn't. I wanted no part of Reuben Foster, thought he was a poser, still do, his injuries and character will spell his doom as an NFL player. What happens this year if nobody is there for us to pick in round 1, and then when the 2nd round comes they go with better value with another position, they do another JuJu type of selection? What if that starting ILB that many of want doesn't happen until round 3 at best? And taken at the end of round 3.

Wouldn't it be better for that 3rd round rookie to have Timmons to learn from, to have as his backup and mentor? I do, and I bet the Steelers do too.

@ $4Mil-$5Mil per? No thanks. Again, agree to disagree. Tough treading being in the minority around here lately. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:57 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Why are the Dolphins cutting him again after just signing him a year ago?


Remember when he went missing before that game??? I bet that has something to do with it, no matter what excuse he made afterwards.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:29 pm 
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@ $4Mil-$5Mil per? No thanks. Again, agree to disagree. Tough treading being in the minority around here lately. ;)


I’m leaning toward your side on this Timmons issue.

I do see his value as a part of the LB corps as depth etc.

However, above a certain price point he becomes the starter simply based on what they are paying him.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:34 pm 
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955876 wrote:
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@ $4Mil-$5Mil per? No thanks. Again, agree to disagree. Tough treading being in the minority around here lately. ;)


I’m leaning toward your side on this Timmons issue.

I do see his value as a part of the LB corps as depth etc.

However, above a certain price point he becomes the starter simply based on what they are paying him.


I'm 100% CERTAIN Timmons will start at ILB for the Steelers next year.....until our ILB draft choice is ready.

....and that's exactly how it should go down, unless Timmons out-plays expectations. THAT wouldn't surprise me at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Timmons played more like an old Larry Foote in 2016, making a bunch of tackles 4-5 yards downfield and often getting taken for a ride. Hopefully just a bad year, but he wasn't nearly as good as VWill was last year, and I think that's a problem.

At least he's durable.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:03 pm 
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If those numbers are accurate it would be just too much money to pay an aging vet even though he offers some value as a stop gap and on the field coach. If they could land Timmons for a cap friendly deal I say pull the trigger. Steelers just don't have the cap space to bring in Timmons @$4Mil-$5Mil per even with his added value and still make the cap work for the rest of the team. Still gotta get safety in order. Whether that means restructuring Mitchell and holding onto him another season [2019] so they can bring in another FA safety and/or draft one.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:00 pm 
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I suppose it's possible you can low-ball Timmons and hope he wants to come back and play for a contender. It happens [rarely]....I'm sure he did himself no favors for himself with how things went down in MIA. PIT sticks to their guns, maybe a 2-yr deal for $2.5M per.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:23 pm 
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I was thinking something in the neighborhood of 2 years $3.5-$3.95Mil...


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:47 pm 
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It is funny, I don't remember Timmons last year as a Steeler, 2016, being that bad like many of you do.

Played in all 16 games, started all 16 games.

He had 2 Interceptions which he returned for 74 yards, had 5 passes defensed. Had 1 forced fumble, 2.5 sacks and 114 tackles.

In those 3 playoff games he had 29 tackles and 2 sacks. Say what you want about Vince Williams last year with his 8 sacks, but I think Timmons could have done that as well if he had been here last season. The man does have 35.5 career sacks (37.5 counting the playoffs).

I think he will come back and sign a very team friendly contract, just like Harrison and Willie Gay did, something like 2 years, $3.5 million. Of his 3 contracts they have come out to a total of some $66 million, I don't think he is going to try and dick around and ask for more money.

I think him leaving for Miami was not necessarily because he wanted more money but because he knew that the team was all in on Shazier and that he would soon be paid as the best ILB in the game and that the Steelers were going to have to save money where they could. I think it was all amicable on all parties involved, there were no hurt feelings but now things are different with Shazier injured. The Timmons that was the high character, soft spoken, quiet leader, I can't help feeling he may feel obligated to come back and help the team.

Don't really understand the resistance to him coming back from so many other sites, media, etc. It would be the perfect low cost signing. Two things needed to happen to help the ILB situation, one sign a vet, two draft an ILB in rounds 1-3. That is all you can reasonably expect in one given year. The idea that we can somehow sign or trade for a free agent ILB that is just as good as Shazier is delusional. Or that we can just draft one and him be a starter and not miss a beat is also likewise delusional. I do think having Timmons back helps with stability, to have almost like a player/coach, who can help that young rookie draft pick and also help with the rotation, to start in a pinch either in relief of the rookie or Williams.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:19 am 
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Good post as usual Scunge. The only question that I have is does he still have the desire to play at a high level now. At Miami, his head and heart didn't seem to be in the game anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:06 am 
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I think he really found out how much he missed being a Steeler, just like Willie Gay, Larry Foote, Bryant McFadden, etc. Also I don't know if we will ever know the whole story concerning his suspension, being AWOL from the team, etc. I look at that as just a forgettable anomaly in an otherwise fine career. He never missed any significant time with us, had a very long streak of games started, never had to worry about him saying crap in the media or doing things to stir the pot.

Some people I have always thought just never liked him because he was not this or that. Was not Darrell Revis, was not Patrick Willis. That he was not more demonstrative, that he was not more vocal. Like as if that was the be all end all for a player. Do we need more Mike Mitchell's who can talk a big game and then play like shit? Nothing wrong with being more quiet and reserved. Having Heath Miller/Lawrence Timmons types that are quiet and show up for work and do their jobs are just as valuable.

Of course maybe all of this is a moot point, maybe he signs with Cleveland? :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:54 am 
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He would probably retire before signing with the Stains. He's pulled in 66M in contracts already and should be set for life if he didn't piss it away.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:49 am 
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My issue is this. Can we get someone in free agency that is on par or better than Timmons (and younger)? If so, and we can do so for a little bit more money, I think that is a better investment. Timmons of 2 years ago was good, but he was also declining. He's not getting any younger.

We have to be open minded about this and not sentimental.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Thanks for the kind comments 39. I saw enough of Timmons last year to say to myself, 'this was one of the few and far between times the Steelers cut bait at the perfect time with a player' and I didn't stutter while saying it. The guy is a back up [at best] type these days. To pay Timmons $4-$5Mil per to play part time on the defense would be beyond stupid and wasteful cause dude would have to come off the field on obvious passing downs. I don't care if there's no learning curve. In fact one can argue to the contrary, Timmons would steal reps from a more valuable prospect in the process. So paying dude 4-5 Mil per will be infuriating. If I'm Colbert and Timmons wants anything more than say, 3 Mil over 2 years..., C-Ya let me know how that works out for you. What tells me that won't happen is the Steelers don't have the cap to do it even if they wanted to.


I have bad memories of watching Timmons trailing TE's downfield his last year or 2 here.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
Thanks for the kind comments 39. I saw enough of Timmons last year to say to myself, 'this was one of the few and far between times the Steelers cut bait at the perfect time with a player' and I didn't stutter while saying it. The guy is a back up [at best] type these days. To pay Timmons $4-$5Mil per to play part time on the defense would be beyond stupid and wasteful cause dude would have to come off the field on obvious passing downs. I don't care if there's no learning curve. In fact one can argue to the contrary, Timmons would steal reps from a more valuable prospect in the process. So paying dude 4-5 Mil per will be infuriating. If I'm Colbert and Timmons wants anything more than say, 3 Mil over 2 years..., C-Ya let me know how that works out for you. What tells me that won't happen is the Steelers don't have the cap to do it even if they wanted to.


I have bad memories of watching Timmons trailing TE's downfield his last year or 2 here.


Which pretty much makes him equivalent to Vincenzo. Unless this is a really cheap depth signing, I'm not sure what kind of value we're really looking at, particularly once the nameplate on the jersey/possible nostalgia value is taken out of account.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:19 pm 
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Timmons is still better than the 3 ILs that we have now. Bring him on.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:43 pm 
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I think people are too quick to just look at pass coverage.

Weren't Sean Spence and LJ Fort really, really bad against the run? I remember the long runs becoming more and more problematic, because they weren't up to the challenge, being taken out easily not just by a guard, but by a fullback, TE, etc? It was just really ugly, not really good against the run or pass, below the line at both.

But I just don't see any prospects to pay for in free agency.

Anthony Hitchens is a big name, with an injury history. His former coach is with the Colts now and supposedly he will make a play to sign Hitchens. Do any of you want the Steelers to get in a bidding war and sign Hitchens for something like 4 years $26-30 million?

What is better? 2 years for $3.5-4 million for Timmons or what it would cost to sign Hitchens? Even an Avery Williamson would probably see something like 4 years $16-18. And neither Williamson or Hitchens is really that good at pass coverage, okay, nothing special. They are probably not any better than Timmons at 32 years of age in pass coverage.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:16 pm 
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What would be nice would be if our depth at virtually every position on defense wasn’t barren after 11 seasons of being guided by a former DB coach and DC.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:27 pm 
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The NFL used to be about running the ball and stopping the run. Not it's about throwing the ball and stopping the pass.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:50 pm 
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We're in a tough spot at ilb, no two ways about it. As has been mentioned, there's nobody out there to sign that you can say fixes the position next year. If there were, I'd sacrifice Bell and use that money to sign them. Best we can do is sign timmons and draft a guy high, hoping he can pick things up (Vander Esch) quickly like Watt.


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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:47 pm 
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So we make Scrunge's switch to a 4-3?

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:37 pm 
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My wanting to switch to a 4-3 has much more to do with being open to drafting all types of players instead of just being focused on this narrow definition of 3-4 type of players.

For example, there are so many ILB and OLB types that we pass over each and every draft. Because they are not tall enough, because they do not weigh enough.

I mentioned Skai Moore in my first mock draft. He is 6'2" about 220 pounds and might run in the 4.55-4.60 area. We would typically just pass over this type of prospect. Not big enough to be an ILB, or an OLB, too weak, what good is he? How about that fact that he had 14 interceptions? That he has great instincts in pass coverage? That has equally great instincts in playing the run?

If our 3-4 defense is so great and so flexible how come we can't find a way to make use of a Skai Moore? To make use of these smaller ILBs/OLBs? 4-3 teams do it all the time. They are all capable of taking these smaller linebackers and making them a Will OLB and get great production out of them.

Dorian Daniels is another small linebacker, where would the Steelers play him in our 3-4 defense? Yes, yes, they would play him in the sub package defense, blah, blah, blah. 4-3 teams figure out ways to have him be a starter as a Will.

Carl Lawson last season. I think at the end of the day the Steelers did not draft him because he was not good enough to be a standup OLB who could set the edge against the run. Bengals did not care and play him as a DE and use him to rush the passer. Just another example of our great 3-4 defense excluding prospects because of this or that.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:42 pm 
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And with a gaping hole at ILB, we need to be flexible.

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 Post subject: Re: Timmons to be released
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Time to look into FA early for that FA ILB


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