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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:58 pm 
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FC wrote:
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Why isn't it Colbert's team?


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I second this sentiment.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:05 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
redmanrumbles wrote:
fortythree wrote:
[

Here's the reason the "Cowher's team" bullshit is fucking dumb.

Kevin Colbert was the guy in charge the whole time. Why isn't it Colbert's team?


Call it whatever the fuck you want. The material point is that defense was built on INHERITED players. And Since Tomlin has come on board, it has been reported many places that he does contribute to draft analysis. So Tomlin has had a hand in the Jarvis Jones and Bud Duprees that we have "rebuilt' this defense around.

Did Cowher have input on drafting Troy or Aaron Smith? I have no idea nor do I care. It doesn't change the fact that Tomlin inherited such players. It also doesn't change the fact that such players and the defense were the primary reason this team went to a SB in 2008 and 2010.


So the GM makes the decisions but it's the coach's fault?


Kindly show me where I said that. My point is that the vast majority of players on those early defenses were inherited. If you think I'm trying to give credit to Bill Cowher I'm not... he is a red herring. The point is Mike Tomlin walked into that situation and as a team Colbert/Tomlin have shown no aptitude for fixing this defense in recent years. See Ziggy Hood, Jarvis Jones, Bud Dupree etc etc

And no, I'm not saying Tomlin only deserves the blame when things don't work out. Do you believe Tomlin doesn't have a lot of input in who we draft defensively- I mean that is his "niche". So sure, he definitely deserves credit for the Lamar Woodley's and Cam Heywards... but all in all the drafting/development on defense has been BELOW THE LINE.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?


Each of those teams had defense built to beat the Patriots and didn’t have to rely on their QBs so much.

Well...the Eagles had to...but they were a good all-around team and Foles has been just fine when not weighed down by Jeff Fisher.

None of those was a Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles.

Every team but the Pats lost to either won or got to the Super Bowl in that timeframe you chose.

The Steelers? Only Denver and New England made it to the Super Bowl. Tebow’s Broncos...the Ravens...Jax...all lost their next game.


Quick comment on that Tebow game - the Steelers were absolutely decimated by injuries:

- Ben was playing on a high ankle sprain (he had missed the week 16 game vs. the Rams)
- Mendenhall blew out his knee in Week 17. Jon Dwyer was already on IR, which gave Isaac Redmond the start
- Pouncey re-injured his ankle in Week 17 and did not play
- Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel both went down with injuries early in the 1st half. Hoke and Aaron Smith were already on IR. D-Line depth was non-existent
- Ryan Clark didn't play (sickle cell)

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:21 pm 
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"redmanrumbles"]
fortythree wrote:
redmanrumbles wrote:
fortythree wrote:
[

Here's the reason the "Cowher's team" bullshit is fucking dumb.

Kevin Colbert was the guy in charge the whole time. Why isn't it Colbert's team?


Call it whatever the fuck you want. The material point is that defense was built on INHERITED players. And Since Tomlin has come on board, it has been reported many places that he does contribute to draft analysis. So Tomlin has had a hand in the Jarvis Jones and Bud Duprees that we have "rebuilt' this defense around.

Did Cowher have input on drafting Troy or Aaron Smith? I have no idea nor do I care. It doesn't change the fact that Tomlin inherited such players. It also doesn't change the fact that such players and the defense were the primary reason this team went to a SB in 2008 and 2010.


So the GM makes the decisions but it's the coach's fault?


Kindly show me where I said that. My point is that the vast majority of players on those early defenses were inherited. If you think I'm trying to give credit to Bill Cowher I'm not... he is a red herring. The point is Mike Tomlin walked into that situation and as a team Colbert/Tomlin have shown no aptitude for fixing this defense in recent years. See Ziggy Hood, Jarvis Jones, Bud Dupree etc etc

And no, I'm not saying Tomlin only deserves the blame when things don't work out. Do you believe Tomlin doesn't have a lot of input in who we draft defensively- I mean that is his "niche". So sure, he definitely deserves credit for the Lamar Woodley's and Cam Heywards... but all in all the drafting/development on defense has been BELOW THE LINE.[/quote]



The HC has as much say in the draft process as does the GM...at the very least its 50/50. so Colbert/Cowher >>>>>>> Colbert/Tomlin...either way who cares, fire them both but Tomlin DESERVES to have his ass shown the door. And he DID INHERIT and WIN WITH Colbert/Cowhers players.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?


Each of those teams had defense built to beat the Patriots and didn’t have to rely on their QBs so much.

Well...the Eagles had to...but they were a good all-around team and Foles has been just fine when not weighed down by Jeff Fisher.

None of those was a Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles.

Every team but the Pats lost to either won or got to the Super Bowl in that timeframe you chose.

The Steelers? Only Denver and New England made it to the Super Bowl. Tebow’s Broncos...the Ravens...Jax...all lost their next game.


Quick comment on that Tebow game - the Steelers were absolutely decimated by injuries:

- Ben was playing on a high ankle sprain (he had missed the week 16 game vs. the Rams)
- Mendenhall blew out his knee in Week 17. Jon Dwyer was already on IR, which gave Isaac Redmond the start
- Pouncey re-injured his ankle in Week 17 and did not play
- Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel both went down with injuries early in the 1st half. Hoke and Aaron Smith were already on IR. D-Line depth was non-existent
- Ryan Clark didn't play (sickle cell)


Story of that game was how Lebeau & Tomlin chose to play defense in OT more so than those injuries IMO.

Injuries are beyond your control. Your choice of plays isn’t.

Putting all 11 defenders within 5 yards of the LOS at the snap in modified OT where you get the ball as long as you don’t give up a TD was ummm, highly questionable.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:37 pm 
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="955876"]
Pabst wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?


Each of those teams had defense built to beat the Patriots and didn’t have to rely on their QBs so much.

Well...the Eagles had to...but they were a good all-around team and Foles has been just fine when not weighed down by Jeff Fisher.

None of those was a Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles.

Every team but the Pats lost to either won or got to the Super Bowl in that timeframe you chose.

The Steelers? Only Denver and New England made it to the Super Bowl. Tebow’s Broncos...the Ravens...Jax...all lost their next game.


Quick comment on that Tebow game - the Steelers were absolutely decimated by injuries:

- Ben was playing on a high ankle sprain (he had missed the week 16 game vs. the Rams)
- Mendenhall blew out his knee in Week 17. Jon Dwyer was already on IR, which gave Isaac Redmond the start
- Pouncey re-injured his ankle in Week 17 and did not play
- Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel both went down with injuries early in the 1st half. Hoke and Aaron Smith were already on IR. D-Line depth was non-existent
- Ryan Clark didn't play (sickle cell)


Story of that game was how Lebeau & Tomlin chose to play defense in OT more so than those injuries IMO.

Injuries are beyond your control. Your choice of plays isn’t.

Putting all 11 defenders within 5 yards of the LOS at the snap in modified OT where you get the ball as long as you don’t give up a TD was ummm, highly questionable.[/quote]



Normally id agree with that but with Tomlin, his philosophy is to regularly run the wheels off his players, and in many if not most cases he has no viable plan B so i dont give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes toi njuries.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:18 pm 
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Oh I agree with you here too Greek.

Just pointing out that even with all those injuries in Tebow game we still had a chance to win it in OT

Until a bad decision by the coaches intervened.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:20 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Oh I agree with you here too Greek.

Just pointing out that even with all those injuries in Tebow game we still had a chance to win it in OT

Until a bad decision by the coaches intervened.




agreed


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:37 pm 
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The offensive play of that game that I remember is one of the last gasp attempts to get into position for the winning score.

It was a pass play to Hines Ward where Ward took about 25 minutes to get downfield.

How i knew Ward was starting to lose it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Trivia .... who are
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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:22 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:
The HC has as much say in the draft process as does the GM...at the very least its 50/50. so Colbert/Cowher >>>>>>> Colbert/Tomlin...either way who cares, fire them both but Tomlin DESERVES to have his ass shown the door. And he DID INHERIT and WIN WITH Colbert/Cowhers players.


Offense Colbert/Tomlin >>>>>>>>>>>offense Colbert/Cowher. Reverse for D.

What’s the point here?

And, so long as you’re simply stating that Tomlin inherited players, indisputable. But if that is somehow a ding against Tomlin. 100% wrong.

We can judge Tomlin all we want post 2011. Deservedly so. But he excelled and did exactly what he was hired to do from ‘07 thru ‘11 with, yes, Cowher’s players.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:39 am 
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Cowher won a game or two with Noll's players, as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:02 am 
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Ice wrote:
Cowher won a game or two with Noll's players, as well.


But he brought Capers and Lebeau onboard with him in 1992....and Blitzburgh was born!

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Are we back to the Cowher vs. Tomlin dumbass argument? Save yourself some fuckin' time. They are the same! They both won one Super Bowl (just barely), were/are great regular season coaches and not so much in the postseason. They are both more stubborn then 10 fuckin' mules. Cases in point - 2001 when Cowher refused to acknowledge there was anything wrong with Special Teams. Bit him in the ass in the end. Tomlin refuses to do anything about his time management dumbfuckedness. Most on this board lambasted Cowher (including me). Some of those still praise Tomlin. Hypocrites.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
Are we back to the Cowher vs. Tomlin dumbass argument? Save yourself some fuckin' time. They are the same! They both won one Super Bowl (just barely), were/are great regular season coaches and not so much in the postseason. They are both more stubborn then 10 fuckin' mules. Cases in point - 2001 when Cowher refused to acknowledge there was anything wrong with Special Teams. Bit him in the ass in the end. Tomlin refuses to do anything about his time management dumbfuckedness. Most on this board lambasted Cowher (including me). Some of those still praise Tomlin. Hypocrites.

This!

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
Are we back to the Cowher vs. Tomlin dumbass argument? Save yourself some fuckin' time. They are the same! They both won one Super Bowl (just barely), were/are great regular season coaches and not so much in the postseason. They are both more stubborn then 10 fuckin' mules. Cases in point - 2001 when Cowher refused to acknowledge there was anything wrong with Special Teams. Bit him in the ass in the end. Tomlin refuses to do anything about his time management dumbfuckedness. Most on this board lambasted Cowher (including me). Some of those still praise Tomlin. Hypocrites.


For about three pages, several folks, maybe even yourself included, I honestly have stopped keeping track, have espoused the idea that Tomlin won with Cowher's players. Was only pointing out that (as is the nature of anything other than taking over an expansion franchise) Cowher also won with Noll's players early on in his career. Like every other coach who has ever taken over an existing franchise. Which renders the who won with whose players argument pretty much moot.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Like every other coach who has ever taken over an existing franchise. Which renders the who won with whose players argument pretty much moot.


But, again, Cowher brought Lebeau and Capers onboard, and those guys were instrumental to the success that followed. VERY DIFFERENT from inheriting a coaching staff, along with a HOF QB.

Also, while Cowher won with "Noll's guys", he continued to win and rebuilt that team at least 3 times. He went to an AFCC twice each with 3 different QB's, a feat that Tomlin will never match. In fact, Tomlin has had a HOF QB the whole time and has only made it to 3 AFCC's, total.

Yeah, we shouldn't compare Tomlin to Cowher because aside from regular season wins he's really not in the same ballpark.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Ice wrote:
Like every other coach who has ever taken over an existing franchise. Which renders the who won with whose players argument pretty much moot.


But, again, Cowher brought Lebeau and Capers onboard, and those guys were instrumental to the success that followed. VERY DIFFERENT from inheriting a coaching staff, along with a HOF QB.

Also, while Cowher won with "Noll's guys", he continued to win and rebuilt that team at least 3 times. He went to an AFCC twice each with 3 different QB's, a feat that Tomlin will never match. In fact, Tomlin has had a HOF QB the whole time and has only made it to 3 AFCC's, total.

Yeah, we shouldn't compare Tomlin to Cowher because aside from regular season wins he's really not in the same ballpark.


If given the choice I'd take Cowher.

That's honestly very scary to admit


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:24 pm 
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If you get rid of Tomlin, the next guy will have to win with his guys, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:04 pm 
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Ice wrote:
If you get rid of Tomlin, the next guy will win with his guys, too.


Fixed

I’d rather have “the next guy” try cause the dope we have isn’t winning anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Ice wrote:
If you get rid of Tomlin, the next guy will have to win with his guys, too.


That's an upgrade - I'll take it because Tomlin isn't winning with "his guys".

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Ice wrote:
If you get rid of Tomlin, the next guy will have to win with his guys, too.


That's an upgrade - I'll take it because Tomlin isn't winning with "his guys".


Happens to just about every coach eventually, I suppose. Not sure if this is the time, but it always happens eventually.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:53 am 
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FC wrote:
Quote:
Why isn't it Colbert's team?


Image

If anyone listened closely to the Where Art2 Thou interviews he conducted with most of the media last week (except Madden), he mentioned in more than one interview that he talks with Tomlin and Colbert DAILY.

I think a lot of people on this site think Colbert and or Tomlin run this show while Where Art2 Thou sits in his little box like a good little owner. I am guessing that’s very wrong and if we all had a peak into this organization, we would all be blown away by how much football influence Pass Down Artie really has.

He seems like a kind, patient, humble and loyal man - no doubt a good man, and I am certain I have been over the top in criticizing him as much as I do. I can only blame those moments on frustration and envy.

But I believe there is a balance needed on this team and Art2 is off-kilter. I don’t think he thinks this way, but he has a max 3 year window with Ben. I just wish the man would get out his comfort zone and try to win now.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:13 am 
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Suwanee88 wrote:
FC wrote:
Quote:
Why isn't it Colbert's team?


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If anyone listened closely to the Where Art2 Thou interviews he conducted with most of the media last week (except Madden), he mentioned in more than one interview that he talks with Tomlin and Colbert DAILY.

I think a lot of people on this site think Colbert and or Tomlin run this show while Where Art2 Thou sits in his little box like a good little owner. I am guessing that’s very wrong and if we all had a peak into this organization, we would all be blown away by how much football influence Pass Down Artie really has.

He seems like a kind, patient, humble and loyal man - no doubt a good man, and I am certain I have been over the top in criticizing him as much as I do. I can only blame those moments on frustration and envy.

But I believe there is a balance needed on this team and Art2 is off-kilter. I don’t think he thinks this way, but he has a max 3 year window with Ben. I just wish the man would get out his comfort zone and try to win now.


He'd make a great baseball commissioner, huh?

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:18 am 
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You don’t think Dan Rooney spoke daily with his GMs and coaches?

That’s reading quite a lot into one statement.

I don’t the issue is over-involvement from Art II.

I think the issue is a stale point of view in the football minds of the team.

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