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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Greek - I’m pretty sure Flacco was back for the the playoff game, though Mallet beat us earlier that year.



Flacco played the playoff game in 2014.. Mallet beat us at the end of 2015 when the Ravens were terrible. We should have missed the playoffs but ended up backing in and beat Cincy and ultimately lost in Denver.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Greek - I’m pretty sure Flacco was back for the the playoff game, though Mallet beat us earlier that year.




thats right, thanks for the correction


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:29 pm 
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redmanrumbles wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
redmanrumbles wrote:
Setting aside the veracity of the madden blurb, you are a MT guy? Just guessing but do you think his overall job has been above the line due to the strength of his regular season record? I know some people feel that way. I can’t look past the 3 recent one and dones nor the defensive game plan vs Brady in the last afcc.

2005-2013 New England... Brady/Belichick: 9-8 postseason, 2 one and dones, 2 Super Bowl Losses
2009-2017 Pittsburgh.. Roethlisberger/MT: 5-6 postseason, 3 one and dones, 1 Super Bowl loss

One of those NE years, they had an offense that was probably the greatest of all time and still managed to lose the Super Bowl to a much lesser team. They also had the advantage of playing an inferior division schedule, which more or less guaranteed them a playoff spot and set them up for homefield advantage.

To say that it's impossible that the Steelers will not have postseason success ever again with this coach is pretty short-sighted and poorly supported.


I'll also remind you that Tomlin's playoff record is most certainly buoyed by his early years here when he inherited an extremely good defense with mostly Cowher guys. Don't believe me? Let's look at DVOA

The 2008 Steelers had the 4th best DVOA in football at 26% BUT had the BEST defensive DVOA at -29%

The 2010 Steelers had the 2nd best DVOA at 32.2 and yet again had the BEST defensive DVOA at -20.7%

Do you really want to argue that the main pieces defensively were mostly guys he inherited? Troy? Aaron? Farrior? Casey, etc? Sure he tweaked it a little bit with Woodley and Timmons but those were predominantly Cowher guys.

So let's look at what he did with a very good inheritance. NOT ONLY did he have the best defense in football, he had a YOUNG hall of FAME QB who still relatively cheap in terms of percentage of salary cap. So what did he do with those teams?

In 2008 his Hall of Fame QB put up a Hall of Fame drive to salvage his ass from losing to a team with -2.8% DVOA or 25% differential in favor of the Steelers

In 2010 he lost to the Packers when we had a nearly 10% advantage in TEAM DVOA.


Yeah, yeah the Pats had huge advantage over Giants and lost. BB's track record and Tomlin's aren't remotely similar.


Here's the reason the "Cowher's team" bullshit is fucking dumb.

Kevin Colbert was the guy in charge the whole time. Why isn't it Colbert's team?

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Ben fkn Tate...wasnt that ryan mallet we lost to? So the scorecard shows, Tebow,Mallet and Bortles. And supposedly Fraudlin is some sort of defensive guru.

The worst part about the Ben Tate thing is that many of us were calling for Tomlin to sign Ben Tate once he cut Blount....which was around late November. Instead, Tomlin waits until Bell gets hurt in the regular season finale....signs Tate on the followingTuesday or Wednesday, starts him on Saturday.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Quote:
Why isn't it Colbert's team?


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:47 pm 
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redmanrumbles wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
redmanrumbles wrote:
In 2010 he lost to the Packers when we had a nearly 10% advantage in TEAM DVOA.


People really need to stop using this stat.

it's meaningless because it doesn't accurately reflect where both teams were when Super Bowl XLV rolled around.

The Packers had two huge mismatches working in their favor.

Aaron Rodgers and his receiving corps v our defensive backfield.

Green Bay's defensive front v our weakened O-line (which had Legursky at center and IIRC, we lost Flozell Adams in the game too).


The bottom line is Tomlin hasn't done jackshit in the playoffs since that elite defense he inherited turned old, slow and one. A "defensive guru" who doesn't look any closer to rebuilding this defense than he did 4 years ago.

That defense he inherited sucked ass in 2006, especially vs the pass, and his centerpiece homerun edge rushers were both added after that time. Not Tomlin's fault that Woodley fell apart and not Cowher's coattails that made James Harrison the starter at ROLB. The 2008 defense's success was largely the result of whatever combination of coaching/development and horse-picking that happened after MT became the coach.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:48 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
[

Here's the reason the "Cowher's team" bullshit is fucking dumb.

Kevin Colbert was the guy in charge the whole time. Why isn't it Colbert's team?


Call it whatever the fuck you want. The material point is that defense was built on INHERITED players. And Since Tomlin has come on board, it has been reported many places that he does contribute to draft analysis. So Tomlin has had a hand in the Jarvis Jones and Bud Duprees that we have "rebuilt' this defense around.

Did Cowher have input on drafting Troy or Aaron Smith? I have no idea nor do I care. It doesn't change the fact that Tomlin inherited such players. It also doesn't change the fact that such players and the defense were the primary reason this team went to a SB in 2008 and 2010.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:49 pm 
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redmanrumbles wrote:
fortythree wrote:
[

Here's the reason the "Cowher's team" bullshit is fucking dumb.

Kevin Colbert was the guy in charge the whole time. Why isn't it Colbert's team?


Call it whatever the fuck you want. The material point is that defense was built on INHERITED players. And Since Tomlin has come on board, it has been reported many places that he does contribute to draft analysis. So Tomlin has had a hand in the Jarvis Jones and Bud Duprees that we have "rebuilt' this defense around.

Did Cowher have input on drafting Troy or Aaron Smith? I have no idea nor do I care. It doesn't change the fact that Tomlin inherited such players. It also doesn't change the fact that such players and the defense were the primary reason this team went to a SB in 2008 and 2010.


So the GM makes the decisions but it's the coach's fault?

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:51 pm 
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And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:55 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?


Each of those teams had defense built to beat the Patriots and didn’t have to rely on their QBs so much.

Well...the Eagles had to...but they were a good all-around team and Foles has been just fine when not weighed down by Jeff Fisher.

None of those was a Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles.

Every team but the Pats lost to either won or got to the Super Bowl in that timeframe you chose.

The Steelers? Only Denver and New England made it to the Super Bowl. Tebow’s Broncos...the Ravens...Jax...all lost their next game.

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Last edited by Jeemie on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:58 pm 
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FC wrote:
Quote:
Why isn't it Colbert's team?


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I second this sentiment.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:05 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
redmanrumbles wrote:
fortythree wrote:
[

Here's the reason the "Cowher's team" bullshit is fucking dumb.

Kevin Colbert was the guy in charge the whole time. Why isn't it Colbert's team?


Call it whatever the fuck you want. The material point is that defense was built on INHERITED players. And Since Tomlin has come on board, it has been reported many places that he does contribute to draft analysis. So Tomlin has had a hand in the Jarvis Jones and Bud Duprees that we have "rebuilt' this defense around.

Did Cowher have input on drafting Troy or Aaron Smith? I have no idea nor do I care. It doesn't change the fact that Tomlin inherited such players. It also doesn't change the fact that such players and the defense were the primary reason this team went to a SB in 2008 and 2010.


So the GM makes the decisions but it's the coach's fault?


Kindly show me where I said that. My point is that the vast majority of players on those early defenses were inherited. If you think I'm trying to give credit to Bill Cowher I'm not... he is a red herring. The point is Mike Tomlin walked into that situation and as a team Colbert/Tomlin have shown no aptitude for fixing this defense in recent years. See Ziggy Hood, Jarvis Jones, Bud Dupree etc etc

And no, I'm not saying Tomlin only deserves the blame when things don't work out. Do you believe Tomlin doesn't have a lot of input in who we draft defensively- I mean that is his "niche". So sure, he definitely deserves credit for the Lamar Woodley's and Cam Heywards... but all in all the drafting/development on defense has been BELOW THE LINE.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?


Each of those teams had defense built to beat the Patriots and didn’t have to rely on their QBs so much.

Well...the Eagles had to...but they were a good all-around team and Foles has been just fine when not weighed down by Jeff Fisher.

None of those was a Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles.

Every team but the Pats lost to either won or got to the Super Bowl in that timeframe you chose.

The Steelers? Only Denver and New England made it to the Super Bowl. Tebow’s Broncos...the Ravens...Jax...all lost their next game.


Quick comment on that Tebow game - the Steelers were absolutely decimated by injuries:

- Ben was playing on a high ankle sprain (he had missed the week 16 game vs. the Rams)
- Mendenhall blew out his knee in Week 17. Jon Dwyer was already on IR, which gave Isaac Redmond the start
- Pouncey re-injured his ankle in Week 17 and did not play
- Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel both went down with injuries early in the 1st half. Hoke and Aaron Smith were already on IR. D-Line depth was non-existent
- Ryan Clark didn't play (sickle cell)

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:21 pm 
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"redmanrumbles"]
fortythree wrote:
redmanrumbles wrote:
fortythree wrote:
[

Here's the reason the "Cowher's team" bullshit is fucking dumb.

Kevin Colbert was the guy in charge the whole time. Why isn't it Colbert's team?


Call it whatever the fuck you want. The material point is that defense was built on INHERITED players. And Since Tomlin has come on board, it has been reported many places that he does contribute to draft analysis. So Tomlin has had a hand in the Jarvis Jones and Bud Duprees that we have "rebuilt' this defense around.

Did Cowher have input on drafting Troy or Aaron Smith? I have no idea nor do I care. It doesn't change the fact that Tomlin inherited such players. It also doesn't change the fact that such players and the defense were the primary reason this team went to a SB in 2008 and 2010.


So the GM makes the decisions but it's the coach's fault?


Kindly show me where I said that. My point is that the vast majority of players on those early defenses were inherited. If you think I'm trying to give credit to Bill Cowher I'm not... he is a red herring. The point is Mike Tomlin walked into that situation and as a team Colbert/Tomlin have shown no aptitude for fixing this defense in recent years. See Ziggy Hood, Jarvis Jones, Bud Dupree etc etc

And no, I'm not saying Tomlin only deserves the blame when things don't work out. Do you believe Tomlin doesn't have a lot of input in who we draft defensively- I mean that is his "niche". So sure, he definitely deserves credit for the Lamar Woodley's and Cam Heywards... but all in all the drafting/development on defense has been BELOW THE LINE.[/quote]



The HC has as much say in the draft process as does the GM...at the very least its 50/50. so Colbert/Cowher >>>>>>> Colbert/Tomlin...either way who cares, fire them both but Tomlin DESERVES to have his ass shown the door. And he DID INHERIT and WIN WITH Colbert/Cowhers players.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?


Each of those teams had defense built to beat the Patriots and didn’t have to rely on their QBs so much.

Well...the Eagles had to...but they were a good all-around team and Foles has been just fine when not weighed down by Jeff Fisher.

None of those was a Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles.

Every team but the Pats lost to either won or got to the Super Bowl in that timeframe you chose.

The Steelers? Only Denver and New England made it to the Super Bowl. Tebow’s Broncos...the Ravens...Jax...all lost their next game.


Quick comment on that Tebow game - the Steelers were absolutely decimated by injuries:

- Ben was playing on a high ankle sprain (he had missed the week 16 game vs. the Rams)
- Mendenhall blew out his knee in Week 17. Jon Dwyer was already on IR, which gave Isaac Redmond the start
- Pouncey re-injured his ankle in Week 17 and did not play
- Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel both went down with injuries early in the 1st half. Hoke and Aaron Smith were already on IR. D-Line depth was non-existent
- Ryan Clark didn't play (sickle cell)


Story of that game was how Lebeau & Tomlin chose to play defense in OT more so than those injuries IMO.

Injuries are beyond your control. Your choice of plays isn’t.

Putting all 11 defenders within 5 yards of the LOS at the snap in modified OT where you get the ball as long as you don’t give up a TD was ummm, highly questionable.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:37 pm 
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="955876"]
Pabst wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
And Belichick lost to Jake Plummer, recently retired Nick Foles, the ghost of Peyton Manning's arm, and Mark Freakin Buttfumble... so what's your point?


Each of those teams had defense built to beat the Patriots and didn’t have to rely on their QBs so much.

Well...the Eagles had to...but they were a good all-around team and Foles has been just fine when not weighed down by Jeff Fisher.

None of those was a Tim Tebow or Blake Bortles.

Every team but the Pats lost to either won or got to the Super Bowl in that timeframe you chose.

The Steelers? Only Denver and New England made it to the Super Bowl. Tebow’s Broncos...the Ravens...Jax...all lost their next game.


Quick comment on that Tebow game - the Steelers were absolutely decimated by injuries:

- Ben was playing on a high ankle sprain (he had missed the week 16 game vs. the Rams)
- Mendenhall blew out his knee in Week 17. Jon Dwyer was already on IR, which gave Isaac Redmond the start
- Pouncey re-injured his ankle in Week 17 and did not play
- Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel both went down with injuries early in the 1st half. Hoke and Aaron Smith were already on IR. D-Line depth was non-existent
- Ryan Clark didn't play (sickle cell)


Story of that game was how Lebeau & Tomlin chose to play defense in OT more so than those injuries IMO.

Injuries are beyond your control. Your choice of plays isn’t.

Putting all 11 defenders within 5 yards of the LOS at the snap in modified OT where you get the ball as long as you don’t give up a TD was ummm, highly questionable.[/quote]



Normally id agree with that but with Tomlin, his philosophy is to regularly run the wheels off his players, and in many if not most cases he has no viable plan B so i dont give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes toi njuries.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:18 pm 
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Oh I agree with you here too Greek.

Just pointing out that even with all those injuries in Tebow game we still had a chance to win it in OT

Until a bad decision by the coaches intervened.


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:20 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Oh I agree with you here too Greek.

Just pointing out that even with all those injuries in Tebow game we still had a chance to win it in OT

Until a bad decision by the coaches intervened.




agreed


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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:37 pm 
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The offensive play of that game that I remember is one of the last gasp attempts to get into position for the winning score.

It was a pass play to Hines Ward where Ward took about 25 minutes to get downfield.

How i knew Ward was starting to lose it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mark Madden on Steelers Clubhouse
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Trivia .... who are
The teflon don
The teflon president
The teflon coach


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