Yeah I'll give Hurdle credit for getting the best of his players, I've done that in the past. He's seemingly fixed Barajas and Barmes' problems at the plate.

But to act like a baseball manager can be the reason for the success of a club is stupid. Players win the games, talent wins the game. All the strategy in the world isn't going to matter if you can't pitch.

John Russell and Lloyd McClendon could've won this many games with the pitching performances Hurdle has got since he's been here.

To me, the real reason for the team's possibly renaissance is Neal Huntington's ability to build a pitching staff and Ray Searage's ability to maximize the talent of pretty much every pitcher he has under him.

_________________
And then you take a good look around and they stole your rock n roll
And once it's gone you'll never get it back

Neal and Ray deserve every bit of praise. No doubt about it. Clint does too. No doubt about that as well.

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Playing football was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. If I could go out today and suit up, I would do it.--Jack Butler

I'll disagree in every way imaginable that John fucking Russell would have won as many games as we did last year and have done this year so far with the same group of players. You underestimate, by a wide margin, the impact a manager can have on a group of men.

_________________
Playing football was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. If I could go out today and suit up, I would do it.--Jack Butler

Why not Russell? Because he was soft-spoken? Because he had no personality?

You give him a team of all-stars and he's winning way more games than he's losing.

This year's Pirates team is cruising toward a collapse too. Why? Because the talent isn't there.

Managers have minimal impact on a baseball game. They can be great motivators sure, but in the end, the best players will be the best and the teams with the best players will win more often than not.

_________________
And then you take a good look around and they stole your rock n roll
And once it's gone you'll never get it back

You and I will have to agree to disagree, for I could not disagree with you more.

Talented teams will win, that is not a question. But a good manager will bring out the best in any group of men, talented or not.

Cruising toward a collapse? Oh yee of little faith.

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Playing football was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. If I could go out today and suit up, I would do it.--Jack Butler

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. Managers don't really matter. Or else the best managers would always win regardless of talent.

Read the following article, it might give you a better idea of where I'm coming from: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/artic ... leid=16630



Nothing to do with faith. It's the numbers. They've completely flipped their pythagorean win-loss. They SHOULD be 27-31 right now. I assume two things...

1.) They'll start to hit better and the pythag will move closer to reality.

2.) The pitching falls apart again and we see why there was such a big disparity between the pythag win/loss and reality as they go on another long losing stretch.

_________________
And then you take a good look around and they stole your rock n roll
And once it's gone you'll never get it back

You can cite all the "facts" you want, bro. I still hold to the old school notion that a manager can matter. You and I come to the game from two totally opposite points of view. You come to it from stats, I come to it from feel. Neither is right or wrong. You can cite "facts" all you want to, but "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle.

If hold true to form, you'll respond to this.

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Playing football was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. If I could go out today and suit up, I would do it.--Jack Butler

Too early in the season for pythag to matter. August is when it really starts to become relevant.

The earth is the center of the universe! The earth is also flat! And hollow!

You couldn't be more wrong. Facts, by their very definition, are indisputably correct.

Baseball is a numbers game, it's not football. The numbers say I'm right.

Your way of thinking is outdated and no offense but it's narrow minded and stupid. It's ignorant to reality. If we were discussing science and using the same ways of thinking you'd be denying that proven scientific facts aren't true because you don't believe in thinking.

That's basically what the argument here is. We can debate whether or not managers make a difference, we cannot argue that managers don't matter insofar as they are only as good as the talent they have on the field.

_________________
And then you take a good look around and they stole your rock n roll
And once it's gone you'll never get it back

Very true, which is why I said they'll either start hitting and the pythag will start to reflect reality or, like last year, the pitching will drop off and they'll suck again.

Will we all rush to blame Clint Hurdle for that like we rush to praise him for their success? After all, it's only fair...

_________________
And then you take a good look around and they stole your rock n roll
And once it's gone you'll never get it back